Quick question about 3-bet sizing

Playing live 1/2 NL 10-handed

Table is very loose-aggressive.

Hero has playing TAG, hasn't really gotten anything going in 2 hours. Stack - $176. Both villains cover.

V1 is LAG wannabe - he has gotten it in all-in preflop with AQo vs AK for ~$140 and all-in on a flop of T64 with KJ for ~$60. Both times he was the aggressor.

V2 is a calling station who called a ~$100 pot sized bet on the turn with a naked king high flush draw (K4s)


OTTH

V1 raises UTG to $18 (lol)
V2 calls in CO
Hero in SB with QQ 3-bets to 80 total.
I feel a raise is mandatory here OOP given these 2 opponents and the table dynamics.

I usually 3-bet to 3.5x OOP and add 1x for each caller, so that's how I came up with $80.
Given my stack size ($176), should I have 3-bet smaller to say $70 or just shoved? Thanks.

it might be helpful to know which hand you had

QQ, oops

normally, you should use very large 3bet sizings in live games, as nobody every folds, however with such a shallow stack and such a strong hand I don't mind going a bit smaller, 60-70ish.

also:

you didn't give necessary info (effective stack), but in most situations you REALLY shouldn't be folding this, if you do it as standard you may be playing too tight

live games you make the bet size to fit your opponents. after the bet if someone asks you should be able to say why you picked that number. if you cant you are pulling your bets out of thin air.

oh that was figuratively as you never ever tell your opponents why you did anything if you value your bankroll more than trying to show how smart you are.

You are too dismissive of your opponents in my opinion. You may be misreading what's happening at the table and that might be why you're short stacked.

So, QQ is a great starting hand, but it's not optimal and you could end up losing quite easily to an Ace or a King. You're calling a raise, which was probably something like a random Ace, maybe a smaller pocket, maybe just two high cards, one of which will be a King. You're probably 70-80% to win the hand pre-flop. However, there is a possibility it's something better and you're crushed, despite what you might think.

You re-raise, your opponent if they are playing a raggedy ace or a couple of random high cards, should fold. Your $80 bet is almost half your stack, so you're basically saying, call me and then I will almost certainly go all in on the flop. Your remaining stack will be $90 and the pot will be $160+ (You don't say what the blinds are), which means just a c-bet will put you all in.

So, if you're going to bet $80, you may as well just go all in pre-flop. If you get a call then you will be wondering what you are up against and if you see an Ace on the board then you're probably behind, but the Queens will be near impossible to fold when you have convinced yourself that your opponent is a donk.

Also, you bet $80 and your opponent goes all in, you pretty much have to call. They then turn over Aces.

My preference would be to re-raise to something like $40-50 and see what happens. That's already like what? Over 20 big blinds?

I like calling pre or raising to $42.

Huh?

He was getting 2:1 on his money and only 4:1 to hit. That is a fold all day.

+1. Adjusting, just like the different facets of the game, will make you the best. Just be sure why you making it that specific size.

I found these numbers specifically for online games, but you have to adjust them for live games.


@100 bbs deep. Pre flop sizing
opening- 3.5bb
3 bet- 12bbs
4 bet- 27bbs or shove
5 bet- Shove

The reason why you have to adjust the numbers is because opens, at Low Live Stakes No Limit, can be anywhere from 3x-10x.

Example: 1-2 NL game $200 effective stacks.

If you are UTG and you have AA, most people will recommend that you open somewhere between $10-$15. You need to figure out what the 'table opening raise size' is, what the maximum size amount people will call, and then adjust. Because of this larger opening sizing, a 3b could be anywhere between $20 (min 3-bet) and $60 or more, which is different that $24 (or 12bbs).

generally if you have a flush draw on the turn and someone bets the pot you should fold.

lol, so you guys all just walk around folding 2nd nut flushdraws to turn bets?

Like I said, there are many variables, but situations where folding such a strong hand to psb on the turn is correct are very rare. Combination of implied odds, folding equity and a chance of having the best hand (or having it after hitting one of your 6 pair outs) is usually enough.

If your opponents are monkeys and you're ahead of their calling range, the more the better. I probably make it $65 - $70 though because much more and you may as well just shove pre.

IMO $80 > shove > $40

Nothing wrong with setting yourself up for a flop shove. AP I'm shoving all but grossest flops.

Do you shove flops with an ace or a king?

Not if both call unless I flop a set. Will probably x/c vs. LAG on A or K but not both. Station, depends on how passive he is and what I put his calling range on.

These types of hands can be the trickiest at this kind of table. You are not that deep for the game these guys 'want' to play and you're OOP.

1) What's your last statement about V1? He was the aggressor.
2) What's good (and bad) about V2? He's a calling station.

There are 2 key things that I find we sometimes ignore when playing these kinds of hands. First, we forget that, even though their styles can be spewish at best, these guys generally still know how to play poker. Anytime you 'expose' yourself by raising you allow them to play more perfectly against you.

Secondly, at least for V1, you take the 'fun' out of the hand by raising to a point where he probably doesn't think you have any fold equity. He wants to lead the pack by making plays and you may have taken the wind out of his sails here.

Taking a look at the positions of the players I once again think that V2 is both good and bad here as a calling station. He is good being a calling station since you may be able to count on him to add to the pot and thus 'give' easier calling odds when you shove the Flop. It's bad since he will see the Flop and be able to play perfectly against you.

I think you can raise up to $45-60 just fine. If you get called in both spots then you can just shove most Flops giving 2.5 to 1 on a call to both players. Some will say 'both' that you should raise to isolate and that 'these' guys' will call 'any' bet if they are gong to call at all. I don't disagree with either of these sentiments, but in this hand it comes down to the positions of the players and how you decide to attack the hand. I want someone to call and by betting smaller I don't hurt V1's ego and yet I still entice V2 to call if V1 folds. I will need to be more cautious if both players come along but I'm probably committed to the hand on most Flops.

I don't think you really want to shove here, even OOP. Perhaps if you were closer to $100, but with your stack .. and being the aggressor .. you should only see calls from very strong hands in both spots. Maybe that's what you want, but I think the smaller raise feigns enough weakness to allow these guys to play most of their range of hands and suck them into paying you off when you shove the Flop if they even sniff it. GL

Thanks for the input guys, I thought $80 might have been a bit too high.

Results: I raised to $80, V1 folds, and V2 4-bet shoves. Given the price I was getting, I called. - (I put a lot of Ace-Kings in his range as a lot of LLSNL players like to just flat opens with AK).

V2 shows KK. Wtf. Nice trap I guess lol.

This all relates to the sub-question that has happened in this thread...not the main premise. Main premise, I bet smaller PF...maybe $40-55.


No...because in the original statement you did not give effective stack size. Tutejszy took a bit of liberty assuming there was money behind and maybe a third opponent...but he also was correct to suggest that POT ODDS of 4:1 is not the consideration in NL (limit,,,oh heck yeah)....IMPLIED ODDS must be considered

Heads up and against a weak tight player...automatic. Add/Change a few variables and an argument can be made for "chasing".

"are very rare" is not accurate. Sure, OP set the premise that this is a low limit NL game...so there are generally a few fish donating. But there are also enough good players swimming around in low level live games that to say that folding a PSB on the turn should be "a rare occurrence" event....is probably not +EV.

I think somewhere in the middle is correct....... sometimes it is correct to call a PSB on the turn with a K high flush draw. The Always/Never crowd is usually wrong.

Plus.....saying K high flush draw is a strong hand is totally inaccurate. Weren't you the one who started the "you didn't give the necessary info" argument...? lol

I should have noted that the villain had $100 left when he called the $100 PSB with the king high flush draw. I was just trying to quickly explain that he was a station.

No apologies needed GL.

I..... made the assumption that villains were playing with a 100BB type effective stack in your note. One should always take little notes on villain's descriptions on faith imo. Tute's point was indeed correct though..... was there enough behind to make calling due to implied odds correct? Still probably not enough if heads up with well less than $100 behind (PF and flop $$ in already).

Call now is good FWIW.

Not that often I would expect a calling station to shove with AK/AQ here unless suited .. maybe. When a player does something that goes against your label for that player you need to take some extra time to think it through. 'Calling station' not LAG, right? Calling stations, well they 'call', not raise/shove.

I'm not so sure I'm even giving him credit for 'the trap' here. Calling station love to sit back and let the action happen in front of them. By raising so much you forced him to expose his strength due to the stack sizes IMO, giving him no option but to raise/shove.

I'm not saying you should've folded or known better since I do think that he can have TT+ for a range and you are in the middle of it. I just want you to realize that he gave off an unusual 'signal' to you by shoving. GL