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What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy?

01-28-2010 , 10:41 PM
I was talking (emailing) to a buddy of mine about whether the economy was getting better and he sent me the reply below.

*** No cliffs, so if you're not into reading, stop here, it's a tl;dr***

(RE: The statement that the economy is getting better) I wonder if it’s a “false positive” due to all the government stimulation

I’ve been doing an unscientific poll by asking every one I meet how their business is doing and almost everyone says it’s the worst it’s ever been and I’m in the Dallas Market where it’s supposedly doing well. The bars aren’t as busy, restaurants aren’t as crowded and the traffic seems lighter on weekends when you would expect it to be busier.

It just seems to me that it’s going to take a while for all the losses to be absorbed so a new economy can build off of an adjusted baseline.

Example:

Someone builds a commercial building expecting to lease it for $30 per SF. They manage to lease it to a bar owner. The bar sells drinks and food based on a price that will recoup their rent, overhead and cost of sales. Customers no longer want to pay $7.00 for a beer and $10+ for a mixed drink, food is too expensive, etc, so customers don’t give the bar the business it was expecting and they can’t reduce prices because their fixed costs like rent are too high. Eventually the bar goes out of business.

The commercial developer tries to rent the property out at $30 per SF but can’t get any takers because the market won’t support the prices necessary to pay rent this high. The commercial bldg owner can’t reduce his rent because his interest and fixed costs are too high to allow him to even break even so eventually he either has to let the property go into foreclosure or convince the bank/investor to adjust the terms of their notes.

People don’t want to lose their properties and banks/investors don’t want to reduce their terms so it takes time to get to the point where all parties realize it’s in their best interest to adjust everything. Oftentimes this will never occur and the property will ultimately be foreclosed upon, sold at foreclosure and losses absorbed.

The guy that buys the commercial bldg at foreclosure can now rent the property for $20 per SF because he paid a lower price at foreclosure, the new tenant can rent the property because he can support this rent on $3.00 beers and $5.00 mixed drinks and cheaper priced foods, customers come back, etc, etc

The same process has to occur in the residential market but people historically overvalue their homes based on their emotional and financial investment. As a result, residential homeowners are even more reluctant to reduce prices until its too late further dragging out the time it takes for the market to correct itself

Combine these two aspects of our economy and it seems plausible to me that it will take years for a true market correction to take place and until a market correction occurs, the economy can’t begin to grow again. The government stimulation in my opinion has just delayed the inevitable but perhaps made it less painfull by allowing the correction to occur over a longer period of time.

Niche markets will find success in any economy (Apple for example) but if I understand correctly, our economy is heavily based on construction so I don’t see how things are going to get better anytime soon since so many people rely on this industry.

Add in the fact that we now have a global economy in which technology allows people to compete against each other while on opposite sides of the globe and I can’t help but think there will be further downward pressure on US wages.

I believe wages have historically been the highest in the US and therefore will incur the most downward pressure.

Add in the loss of manufacturing and the pitiful car industry in the US and I can’t help but wonder what the US has to offer the world market in the long run. Creativity? Ingenuity?

I haven’t even brought up our governments spending, multiple wars, government ineficiency and waste plus the seemingly endless social programs. How can we sustain them all long term?

Some revenues are kept artificially high by companies like AT&T & Apple that structure their businesses to not offer the best service at the best prices. Instead they use creative extortion that forces you to use AT&T if you want the Iphone, won’t let your mobile and home number combine into one thereby forcing you to have more phone lines than you’ve ever had and far more than you ever needed,

I think eventually internet phones will slowly take away business from AT&T because people will realize they can just spend money on a great internet service and then use a VOIP phone (like Ooma http://www.ooma.com/ ) and drop their home phone and internet service with AT&T. Now imagine if your mobile phone can work off of VOIP and you no longer have to spend extra money on your mobile phone service.

I believe in the long run the competition will create a product that allows us to spend fees on one service that provides our internet (Wimax wherever we go like Clear Wireless http://clearwimaxdfw.com/ ) that will allow us to have internet access anywhere and also provide the connection we need to run our phones.

How much in revenue will be taken away from fat cats like AT&T when they can no longer extort us for multiple phone line costs, mobile phone costs, 3Gs internet for the Iphone, Home internet fees, text message fees and 40% taxes on top of that?

The same synchronization is going to occur with computers if they can perfect cloud computing. The Ipad may be the prelude to the device that allows us to get rid of multiple computers and just have a small mobile device that is portable and powerful. It won’t need huge hard drives because programs will be internet based and everyone’s files will be stored online. Sound crazy? Check this out:

http://www.ted.com/talks/pranav_mist...echnology.html

If we had good government, they should use this time to rebuild our infrastructure and push our economy toward energy independence. Imagine the industry that could be created by using a shotgun approach to our energy needs. Some parts of the states could work off of geothermal that would create local jobs for installation, service and maintenance, others would use wind (say in Kansas, Oklahoma and other windy locations), other parts of the states might use solar (Arizona, Neveda). The same industries for installation and service could arise from these energy solutions.

We’re a hard working country and can definitely create a new economy based on new industry and technology, I just hope politics and our government don’t screw it op.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
01-28-2010 , 11:55 PM
What do you think about it?

To me it's just another opinion on the economy, which everyone is entitled to their own beliefs why everything is happening.

I think what he is saying sounds pretty reasonable, but I have a hard time predicting the future.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
01-29-2010 , 12:05 AM
I think it has a lot of merit, but I tend to be a little on the pessimistic side and wanted to know if others felt there is a more positive way of looking at our current situation that perhaps he and myself are not considering.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
01-29-2010 , 12:27 AM
*cliffs notes*

We are ****ed
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
01-29-2010 , 06:43 AM
Are there really places (non-movie theatre) that were charging $7 for a beer?
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
01-29-2010 , 08:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_C_Slater
Are there really places (non-movie theatre) that were charging $7 for a beer?
There's places all over Toronto, but those are in Communist Pinko Dollars.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
01-29-2010 , 02:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by A_C_Slater
Are there really places (non-movie theatre) that were charging $7 for a beer?
Yes, i know multiple places around town that charge that. Generally for a pint of microbrew or some import...not for a can of bud lite

EDIT 1: Just realized your comment was in jest

EDIT 2: I don't know if i totally agree with your friend, but i really like the way he/she thinks

Last edited by springsteen87; 01-29-2010 at 02:14 PM.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
01-30-2010 , 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yimyammer
The same synchronization is going to occur with computers if they can perfect cloud computing... won’t need huge hard drives because programs will be internet based and everyone’s files will be stored online. Sound crazy?

If we had good government...
The cloud thing is only for free social ****... every corporation in the world is going high security... often to comply with legal regulations... 2 years from now 100% of corporate laptops will be encrypted... NO SERIOUS BUSINESS would ever put anything important on a "cloud".

You are aware that Marxists have hijacked the US Executive Branch? They don't care a rats ass about your idealist views... it's power, baby, power... and the end always justifies the means.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
01-30-2010 , 02:40 PM
Can you go back to posting
Like this please Redman
It made me laugh a lot
but then again i'm very
easy to please, kthx
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
01-30-2010 , 04:19 PM
Quote:
(RE: The statement that the economy is getting better) I wonder if it’s a “false positive” due to all the government stimulation
You think... double the money supply for a tiny sign of recovery.


Wow, you really are concerned with the phones. Obv. bitter towards AT&T.


Quote:
We’re a hard working country and can definitely create a new economy based on new industry and technology, I just hope politics and our government don’t screw it op.
(PESSIMISM WARNING)

Don't cross your fingers.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
02-01-2010 , 03:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yimyammer
Add in the loss of manufacturing and the pitiful car industry in the US and I can’t help but wonder what the US has to offer the world market in the long run. Creativity? Ingenuity?
The economy isn't that bad, its just our expectations haven't been brought back down yet. It still has the feel of the post dot com bubble with people wondering where the next bubble could come from and pounce on it.
Expectation wise, I mean I bet alot of people that bought iphones the past year also lost their job....I don't think that kind of thinking is gone yet. Not everyone can be a real estate speculator, hedge fund manager or poker pro.
However if you look back in history, the only time the economy really looks good its because its getting ready to get bad, the better it looks the worse things get...and when it looks really bad its getting ready to get better.
Welcome to the business cycle.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
02-01-2010 , 06:08 PM
Nothing is wrong with his thinking. But his examples of the bar owner that can't reduce prices or else he won't meet fixed costs and the commercial real estate developer who can't reduce rent or he won't be able to pay his mortgage are not the norm for how people do business in this country. Granted there are a ton of people in situations exactly like those examples, but there's also many more people who can cut their prices and have a cost structure that will allow them to continue to earn a living.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yimyammer
Combine these two aspects of our economy and it seems plausible to me that it will take years for a true market correction to take place and until a market correction occurs, the economy can’t begin to grow again.
I agree fully with the first half of this sentence, but growth definitely has/can continue to occur without "true" market corrections ever taking place.

As to the wages in the US facing serious downward pressure I have nothing to add except this link : http://hbr.org/2009/07/restoring-ame...itiveness/ar/1
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
02-02-2010 , 04:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug Funnie II
Nothing is wrong with his thinking. But his examples of the bar owner that can't reduce prices or else he won't meet fixed costs and the commercial real estate developer who can't reduce rent or he won't be able to pay his mortgage are not the norm for how people do business in this country. Granted there are a ton of people in situations exactly like those examples, but there's also many more people who can cut their prices and have a cost structure that will allow them to continue to earn a living.



I agree fully with the first half of this sentence, but growth definitely has/can continue to occur without "true" market corrections ever taking place.

As to the wages in the US facing serious downward pressure I have nothing to add except this link : http://hbr.org/2009/07/restoring-ame...itiveness/ar/1
Do you have a link that will allow me to read the entire article? It cuts off and I can't read the whole thing.

Seems like the example of the bar was just one of many possible scenarios that have a similar end result.

Ex: Husband and wife buy a nice house and a couple of cars, they both have good jobs, but don't really keep much in savings choosing to save primarily in the retirement plan. The economy causes them to lose their jobs or take a pay cut. They can no longer afford their houses and cars. There is no equity in any of their assets, they are forced to go into foreclosure or hope the bank will adjust their notes. Regardless of the course they take, its not one they enter into quickly or willingly and will take time for the losses to be absorbed or restructuring to occur.

I think the main point is that its going to take time for everuthing to shake out unless some miracle technologies create a massive influx of jobs and weath creation
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
02-02-2010 , 04:34 AM
Quote:
I believe wages have historically been the highest in the US and therefore will incur the most downward pressure.
Wages are typically sticky, as well as prices for most things. This makes it difficult for a classical economics correction in practice.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
02-03-2010 , 12:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArturiusX
Wages are typically sticky, as well as prices for most things. This makes it difficult for a classical economics correction in practice.
OP's points are well made. I think they have a lot of merit. I also agree with ArtX here. I think we will begin "normal growth" not after a correction of nominal prices and wages but in decline of real wages through inflation.

Basically the govt will give away money until it filters through the system and we have enough money to afford the prices of goods, rent, beers etc. We are already seeing it in many industries; just follow the stimulus.
----printing money to pay workers for infrastructure projects, RE personal/banks making huge money jamming first time home buyers into FHA govt backed loans, green project grants etc

This will eventually lead to a rise in nominal wages which prob wont matter much as core inflation will rise and lead to flat/declining real wages.

This will lead to a host of problems down the line (any kind of fixed income retirement accounts comes to mind first along with US currency issues)
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
02-04-2010 , 09:31 PM
Your friend sounds realistic, but we wont see growth like the previous 10 years because people wont be borrowing. The market will win in the end and if that means a depression and or big war it will take a while to correct.
History always repeats and stimulus and more borrowing wont help, look at the japanese they have been in depression since 1990 doing stimulus soon they might have a heart attack.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
02-11-2010 , 01:18 PM
As far as shotgunning the energy sector, my perception is the oil companies are very powerful and won't let that happen.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote
02-12-2010 , 02:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosdef
There's places all over Toronto, but those are in Communist Pinko Dollars.
Strip club imo.
What's wong with this line of thinking about our economy? Quote

      
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