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07-14-2011 , 09:26 AM
Where's a good place to buy silver contracts/futures etc...

Interactive Brokers?
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 09:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by verneer
In Margin of Safety, Klarman writes:

Assets and securities can often be characterized as either investments or speculations. The distinction is not clear to most people. Both investments and speculations can be bought and sold. both typically fluctuate in price and can thus appear to generate investment returns. But there is one critical difference: investments throw off cash flow for the benefit of the owners; speculations do not. The return to the owners of speculations depends exclusively on the vagaries of the resale market.

From the definition, how is investing in PM's speculating vs. investing? Specifically ...

A) Miners
B) Physical Bullion
C) ETF's

Is there a a difference between the three in terms of that definition?

Finally, I am still trying to understand the investment value of gold. I understand that silver has industrial value - since it's important in solar energy as an excellent conductor ... but gold? Under what conditions could ownership of gold be classified as an investment as opposed to speculation?
Because it's money. Think of gold not as an investment but a currency. If you hold all your assets in dollar denominated stocks bonds etc. you are taking on quite a bit of currency risk. Seeing as how paper currencies HAVE ALWAYS been inflated to nothing it would be imprudent to not hedge yourself accordingly. Gold is the ultimate currency because it can not be inflated at the whim of a politician or central banker. It's the reason why gold has stood the test of time.

Will this gold bull end, eventually, yes. You will know its ending when you have a currency that is a viable alternative to gold.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 09:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slider
Where's a good place to buy silver contracts/futures etc...

Interactive Brokers?
There are probably 30 brokers you can choose from research them and pick the one that fits you best.

IB is low cost and has good fills. Their trading platform is awkward and bulky though.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 09:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionzip54
Because it's money. Think of gold not as an investment but a currency.
I am having a hard time grasping that though. If I hold gold bullion, where can I go spend it? Don't I have to go exchange it for some form of fiat currency before I can go buy books, groceries, or most other consumer goods?
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 10:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by verneer
I am having a hard time grasping that though. If I hold gold bullion, where can I go spend it? Don't I have to go exchange it for some form of fiat currency before I can go buy books, groceries, or most other consumer goods?
Depends on your state. There are several states that now allow you to pay debts with gold and silver. Georgia, I believe is one of them. I'm not sure however.

I understand your arguement, but you can't spend euros, yen, or francs in the U.S. either. Just because you can't spend them here doesn't mean you wouldnt hedge your dollar risk with them. If paper money worked we would all be still using continentals, or greenbacks.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 10:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionzip54
If you hold all your assets in dollar denominated stocks bonds etc. you are taking on quite a bit of currency risk.
Gold is also denominated in dollars.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 10:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brons
Gold is also denominated in dollars.
and euros, francs, yen, signapore dollars, hong kong dollars, and remenbi. What's your point?
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 11:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionzip54
and euros, francs, yen, signapore dollars, hong kong dollars, and remenbi. What's your point?
Stocks are also denominated in many currencies. So I wonder what your point is?
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 11:29 AM
Let's take RDS: officially denominated in 3 currencies (unofficially probably in more). This is great, right? So what if we delist RDS from the London and Amsterdam exchanges does it become a bad investment because of currency risk?

Hint: no.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 11:44 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brons
Stocks are also denominated in many currencies. So I wonder what your point is?
I would assume Verneer has a account inside the U.S. and is trading stocks on U.S. stock exchanges. I would also assume any property he owns is in the U.S. and his mortgage is paid in dollars. If he owns a rental property I would assume he is paid in U.S. dollars. If he runs a business he in the U.S. he probably books profits in dollars.

I am assuming gold is an alternative currency.

Per your example, you could say anything is denominated in dollars. The EUR/USD cross is 1.41 in DOLLARS. USD/EUR is 0.70 in EUROS. Your point is asnine and irrelevant.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 11:46 AM
Long silver via AGQ at 202.53. Stop at 198.

Intermediate term trade. First target would be 220. Then hopefully a retest of its highs.

Last edited by actionzip54; 07-14-2011 at 11:54 AM.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 12:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionzip54
I would assume Verneer has a account inside the U.S. and is trading stocks on U.S. stock exchanges. I would also assume any property he owns is in the U.S. and his mortgage is paid in dollars. If he owns a rental property I would assume he is paid in U.S. dollars. If he runs a business he in the U.S. he probably books profits in dollars.

I am assuming gold is an alternative currency.

Per your example, you could say anything is denominated in dollars. The EUR/USD cross is 1.41 in DOLLARS. USD/EUR is 0.70 in EUROS. Your point is asnine and irrelevant.
No, it's not asinine or irrelevant. It's irrelevant in what currency stocks are denominated.

If you put your house up for sale in the US but you have the asking price in euro's or pounds, have you in any way diversified? No. I know you don't get it.

I suggest you talk more with mrmusicrecord. I disagree with him on a lot but at least he understands fundamental stuff like this.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 01:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brons
No, it's not asinine or irrelevant. It's irrelevant in what currency stocks (or gold) are denominated.
If you put your house up for sale in the US but you have the asking price in euro's or pounds, have you in any way diversified? No. I know you don't get it.

I suggest you talk more with mrmusicrecord. I disagree with him on a lot but at least he understands fundamental stuff like this.
Lol you just said what I said. It's irrelevant.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 01:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brons
No, it's not asinine or irrelevant. It's irrelevant in what currency stocks are denominated.

If you put your house up for sale in the US but you have the asking price in euro's or pounds, have you in any way diversified? No. I know you don't get it.

I suggest you talk more with mrmusicrecord. I disagree with him on a lot but at least he understands fundamental stuff like this.
Youre arguing with the new biggest tard in BFI. He just posted this AM about expecting a pullback in silver then claims to have bought 3 hours later.

Just go back to late June when he left the 1/2 NL theory section, discovered BFI, posted some nonsense about CSCO, and we've been stuck ever since.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionzip54
Lol you just said what I said. It's irrelevant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionzip54
Because it's money. Think of gold not as an investment but a currency. If you hold all your assets in dollar denominated stocks bonds etc. you are taking on quite a bit of currency risk. Seeing as how paper currencies HAVE ALWAYS been inflated to nothing it would be imprudent to not hedge yourself accordingly. Gold is the ultimate currency because it can not be inflated at the whim of a politician or central banker. It's the reason why gold has stood the test of time.

Will this gold bull end, eventually, yes. You will know its ending when you have a currency that is a viable alternative to gold.
Yeah
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 01:58 PM
Honestly, maybe you are right but I'm not even quite sure what you are trying to get at.

If you could elaborate I would appreciate it.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 02:11 PM
If you hold all your assets in dollar denominated stocks. You are not taking on quite a bit of currency risk. At least not because of the denomination.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 02:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brons
If you hold all your assets in dollar denominated stocks. You are not taking on quite a bit of currency risk. At least not because of the denomination.
Ok, you're right. I shouldn't have phrased it like that.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 04:03 PM
but u have less purchase power...
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 06:24 PM
[/SPOIL]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brons
Let's take RDS: officially denominated in 3 currencies (unofficially probably in more). This is great, right? So what if we delist RDS from the London and Amsterdam exchanges does it become a bad investment because of currency risk?

Hint: no.
This is only half right. No, if you assume that the stock/ home price rises at the same rate of inflation as the currency in which it is priced.

Also, I do not think you were referring to bonds but obviously bonds are most definitely subject to currency risk. Negative "real" interest rates happen all the time.

Last edited by actionzip54; 07-14-2011 at 06:39 PM.
Silver Quote
07-14-2011 , 09:59 PM
Warning sign gold longs.
Plan to trade the long side with less size / more caution.

Would like to see 1563 gap fill.
Silver Quote
07-15-2011 , 04:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by actionzip54
[/SPOIL]

This is only half right. No, if you assume that the stock/ home price rises at the same rate of inflation as the currency in which it is priced.
No. Inflation doesn't change anything with regards to the denomination. Listing MSFT in euro's doesn't protect MSFT shareholders from dollar hyperinflation.
Silver Quote
07-15-2011 , 11:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yowserrrs
Was able to sell 1/4 of my spread for $1.20. I'm only going to get $2 out of it anyway and SLV has to hold here through the end of August.

On GLD, still short some 153 and 154 strike making me short around 154.30.
Covered the GLD short for a $0.40 loss.

Sold another 1/4 of the SLV spread for $1.40.
Silver Quote
07-15-2011 , 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brons
No. Inflation doesn't change anything with regards to the denomination. Listing MSFT in euro's doesn't protect MSFT shareholders from dollar hyperinflation.
No, of course not. Microsoft, as a U.S. based company, would still be exposed to the risks of a dollar hyperinflation wether priced in euros or dollars.

Owning gold, silver, or any other hard assest would hedge you against this risk, however. This is what I was arguing. I wasn't arguing that some how MSFT would be worth more because its denominated in euros. Simply that owning only U.S. based companies, dollar denominated bonds, U.S. real estate, cash savings in dollars a person is exposed to "dollar risk".

And for the record, I would give hyperinflation 10-1 odds here. Also, If there was a hyperinflation it is possible that MSFT priced in dollars would trade at a discount relative to MSFT in euros because of Gresham's Law. That's pure speculation, however.
Silver Quote
07-17-2011 , 06:50 PM
Big open for gold and silver....
Silver Quote

      
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