It was a dead account under a friend's name, I didn't have an ftp account. I couldn't cash it because it was in a different name and had very little playing history.

I didn't deposit any money. It was never moved. Your conclusion for that scenario is correct, but this scenario is not the same. Also note I think he's entitled to a refund, the question is what type of money he paid me in. I also think he's entitled to me finishing the service.

When you accept FTP money as payment you are accepting any and all risks associated with the money, even if there are risks you are unaware of. When the money transfer hits your FTP account, his part in the the transaction is complete. If someone pays you via check, the transaction is complete when the money hits your bank account, not when you withdraw the money.

Imagine he had paid in Chinese yen and there was massive inflation, such that the yen was worthless. Would he not be entitled to a refund? Or let's say he pays you American Dollars via BOA transfer and then after the money hits your account BOA freezes all accounts for 10 months. This is a risk inherent in BOA dollars and is assumed by the recipient.

OK, let's say he transferred $1,000 from his checking account in Bank A to your checking account in Bank A. Bank A goes bust and you lose that $1,000. Do you still not owe him a $1,000? The fact that Bank A goes bust has nothing to do with your business transaction with a client. It doesn't matter that he just so happened to use the same bank which is now defunct. It doesn't make your client's money less real just because he happened to use Bank A as well.

No, it's the exact same scenario. Change "deposit into" to "accept payment into" and it doesn't change anything. Once you accept payment via a certain method, YOU assume the risk for holding the funds in that account, not the payer.

c'mon Art I have a bit more sympathy with your case than some but not the FT bull****.

If you accept an FT transfer than once its transferred correctly to your FT account then that's it, end of story, you've been paid.

I don't even get how this is a question. You accepted payment in Full Tilt dollars. Full Tilt money isn't a separate currency, and if you thought it might be, then you should have either not accepted it or had explicitly discussed it beforehand.

The only framework that makes sense is that you accepted Full Tilt money as legal tender for services rendered, and thus you owe legal tender to the purchaser when said services are not rendered. Considering FT money is no longer available, you now owe the purchaser cash. How is that so hard to understand? The fact that you're even arguing this at all casts a serious shadow on not only your ethics but your business savvy. Every single poster so far on this issue thinks you're in the wrong, and I predict that trend will continue.

For the record, I'm working on an agreement that will see him get a refund. His response has been positive.

To those people who yell it me, uhhh, understand that no one is going to be wronged by me. Everyone is going to leave this situation happy.

lol this is great

Woah, dude, settle down. Why does everyone interpreting what I'm saying as 'i don't have to pay him'? This isn't what I'm asking, I'm saying that I'm coming up with a framework that deals with this.

For the last time, he's getting a refund, and I always believed he's entitled to a refund. How is that hard to understand, Tupucia? Also:

It wasn't backed by USD$ in trust accounts. We know this now. So what was it? Credits on a site.

Wow, pay him back or admit you're busto bra...

Seriously, you make blog posts like the ones posted in this thread or the other thread about being hungover because of a 5 day bender. Blah blah blah. Cry Cry Cry. You blew the money, thought you could get away with it by ignoring it/ deleting threads, and now you're making lame excuses.

What you need to do is promise you'll pay the money back as soon as possible, check into to rehab, and spend some time working some **** job so you can pay whats owed. Get out of here with this weak ass bull****.

i like how he's framing it as though he's doing the client the favour. i'm not if rehab is the kind of institution this guys needs to be admitted to...

Maybe the state could rehabilitate him...

Hey, you helped me and I appreciated it and am not out to get you, so I'll say this with you knowing this -- you need to pay him. He paid you in what you thought was US Currency, and you accepted the payment. He paid, regardless. You received his money and then did not in turn take into account the risk in holding it in FTP, and then you got YOUR money frozen. You have his money and you mismanaged it by keeping it on an account not backed by the good faith and credit or a reputable firm or gov't.

this is such a bull**** excuse. If you didn't think FTP $ was worth as much as the USD why would you accept it as payment? He is entitled to a FULL refund based on the terrible job you have done.

First you say that the FTP account was a dead account, that is was a friends account and you couldn't cash it out. So how were you ever planning on getting that money?

Then you say that FTP dollars were "denominated a different currency" but you accepted an FTP payment equal to the amount of USD that you would charge for your services? so how does that work? Because I know if I was doing $800 worth of work and someone wanted to pay me in a currency that was worth 50% of USD I would be looking for $1600 worth of their currency...

Got ya. I thought you were saying he wouldn't get paid until FTP unfroze accounts, which is obviously incorrect. Feel free to disregard my last post.

Actionzip, it's difficult to blow through money that remained on a poker account. Also, I don't need to get a job to make re-payments, instead I can send him the full amount. How awesome is that, I don't have to work minimum wage like you!

Rehab? Does it allow me to get away from your posting? This might be difficult for you to fathom, but some of us are good at things that make money, and use said money to socialise, then ask what the point of making all that money was when all that's out there in bars is emptiness and superficiality. Some of us, ask deeper questions about what we want, and then put down thoughts/feelings in writing.

Quoting for elitist attitude.

This is pure comedy. Where is Admo when you need him?

ColinDochertyisathief.com

lol at the currency explanation. There is no way you will ever be successful if that is your thought process.

jesus, this **** as gone 2 far, 2 many people without a ****ing clue trolling the thread. Never met this mod in my life, never have done business with him, never even exchanged a pm with him........ but what I can see is that this wasnt intentional / just business mistakes, he wasnt trying to scam anyone. And from the sounds of it he is woking with his customers to make things right. If someone paid me on FTP, and I have and am willing to povide him the services paid for, Why the hell would I want to pay him in cash???? The money he paid is frozen, if you bought something on a credit card and tried to return it - How many companies are going to pay you that refund in cash???

He probably blew his money daytrading and playing poker, not boozing...

I did think it was, as did he, as did we all. Turns out, FTP money wasn't backed by trust accounts with the equivalent in cash. All those numbers in the cashier wasn't worth what they appeared.

Was going to contact my friend about working out some way to get an MB account. He was in Australia, it was difficult to coordinate while I was overseas, so I was going to wait till we met in person. Then, a few weeks later....

Well obviously I didn't know at the time FTP was worth much less. Neither did he. That's the problem, his money, the money he sent me, is on a full tilt account. So, given the weird circumstances, I'm going to work out a better way to refund.

My whole post was about how stupid this situation is, in response to 'OMG ART IS SCAMMING'. Just to be clear, there isn't any scamming, just a tricky set of circumstances. I hope everyone acknowledges the individuality of the situation. I hope everyone realises that he's going to come away from this happy, as eveyone is. I hope everyone realises that this goes against the definition of scamming, and that this so-called 'scam' was completely public.

Unlike WSP I'm not going to start start threatening to sue people for calling this a scam, but did anyone stop to think maybe, just maybe, the only one who is losing money is me, off a public business? Maybe, just maybe, there's a unique set of circumstances here?

That's fine, I'll wear it, but don't pretend this is some con. Business services gone wrong. So I refund people not happy. Last I check, this is a standard outcome that leaves everybody ok.

Before your Full Tilt funds were frozen, was it possible to cash out US$1000 from a Full Tilt account to a bank account?

Lol thats your response. Bruce Kovner drove a cab for awhile. Look where he is. Get a clue you drooling, alcoholic, spoiled punk you stole someones money. I know very few ultra successful businessman that are lai out for 5 days. Needsarealitycheck.jpg