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2014 Trading Thread 2014 Trading Thread

12-08-2014 , 11:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
How the heck did you lose money there?!?!?!?!?
o8b tends to bring out the full ******/degen from people playing just to blow off steam.
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12-08-2014 , 11:38 PM
Not seeing much on the short watch. I've had VGGL short for a few days and I'm interested in covering depending on the action. I would be watching DGLY but I can't short it. Was watching TASR as a body camera play but the chart wasn't that great and I feel like the short mostly played out today.

Watching JRJC which is up on air and IDRA up on data out after hours. Nothing truly parabolic out there
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12-09-2014 , 12:41 AM
Hey guys, I have a theory that I had been thinking about today in terms of long time horizon investing in tax advantaged accounts that don't allow the use of margin. The idea is to utilize leverage in the form of purchasing SPY LEAPS to determine if the decay/other factors are worthwhile given the benefits.

I broke it down into 2 hypothetical $100k portfolios, each consisting solely of positions in SPY for equities and DLTNX (I always talk about this fund and the manager David Gundlach, and its easy to use here) for bonds. I used 10 year data (though 8% is SPY's historical return anyway) on SPY to estimate an EV of an 8% annual return with a standard deviation of 14.66 and sharpe ratio of 0.49. Since DLTNX has only been around for a few years, I took Gundlach's previous fund that he built and ran, TGMNX, and used a much lower expected return of 5.5% as I am considerably less optimistic about fixed income returns in the future and didn't think using the higher historical returns was reasonable, and used an averaged DLTNX/TGMNX standard deviation and sharpe for 3 and 1.5 respectively.

Portfolio A has an 80/20 exposure to SPY/DLTNX. For its weighted totals calculations, I adjusted for a 100% total using 80% weighting to the SPY position and 20% weighting to the DLTNX position.

Portfolio B is long the equivalent of $100k worth of SPY -- or pretty close as I wanted to choose a slightly lower delta to account for gamma accelerating on the more historically likely scenario of SPY going up. The delta is reasonable to being long about 484 shares of SPY with $100k. For this I used 5 December 2016 $130 calls at a mid-price of $76.75, which utilizes $38,375 in cash. The plan would be to buy them 2 years out, and roll them after 1 year to keep theta down. The expected return was modeled on the basis of what happens to calls' value if SPY increases 8% in 1 year. Since there is inherently a time premium in holding options long, it ends up losing a bit more than it gains if SPY is down the same amount after 1 year. Obviously this also means that it will have gained less than it could have all else being equal. I took the average of these 2 figures (~19.1% on a gain, ~21.4% on a loss) and subtracted the difference from the gain (1.15%) to calculate the expected return. The expected return, 17.95%, is the ROC of the amount invested into the options, which represents the 8% return on the underlying SPY + the time premium and other variables in an option pricing model. For its weighted totals I adjusted for a 161.6% total - long 100% equity, long 61.6% bond fund, and thus used a weight of 0.62 and 0.38 respectively for the purposes of the new risk and return calculations.

It's worth noting that the standard deviation and sharpe ratio are irrelevant (but worth looking at to get an idea of the benefits), even though they are based on historical statistics. So long as both portfolios use the same variables, the end relative result should find the same relative improvement on a risk adjusted return basis.

Note that the results showed a higher expected return, lower standard deviation, and higher sharpe ratio. Let me know what you all think.

Here's a quick spreadsheet on it to make it easier to understand visually:


Last edited by DickFuld; 12-09-2014 at 12:49 AM.
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12-09-2014 , 01:28 AM
How much can the drop in the last few months by TSLA be attributed to declining oil prices? (whether correctly or not)
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12-09-2014 , 01:35 AM
probably a bit

more pertinent...their growth is slowing, and the Model X was again delayed
2014 Trading Thread Quote
12-09-2014 , 01:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keloika
How much can the drop in the last few months by TSLA be attributed to declining oil prices? (whether correctly or not)
Are people who can afford Teslas really going to forgo purchases because they can now drive other vehicles at lower gas prices?
2014 Trading Thread Quote
12-09-2014 , 04:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
How the heck did you lose money there?!?!?!?!?
Ran horribly. Damn locals at the 15-30 kept running me down. My good poker income chart broke support of the long term trend on this trip.
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12-09-2014 , 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duffman08
Are people who can afford Teslas really going to forgo purchases because they can now drive other vehicles at lower gas prices?
I think it does make a difference. , I have heard opinion of people that easily can buy it ,and its a factor , also , Tesla won't maintain that valuation by selling to the top 5% , they want to reach 20-25% of car buyers.
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12-09-2014 , 09:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianTheMick2
Put back on what I took off VXX/XIV trade today.
I am currently not happy with this.
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12-09-2014 , 11:07 AM
So is this predominantly China combined with a bit of a breather? Trying to decide if I want to buy a few discounted favorites.
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12-09-2014 , 11:45 AM
Some biotech trader bought 1k BLUE $45 calls at its lows early last week. Nice little 10x. Crazy action already today.
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12-09-2014 , 12:10 PM
Question about hedging....

Imagine XYZ is trading at $40 a share.

I buy 1 call at 42 for $2.00 and sell 1 call at 50 at 50 cents for 2 months from now. Hypothetical numbers, so they might not make complete sense. I've paid $150.

Now imagine that the stock is at 49 one month from now, so still one month from expiry. My 42 call is now worth 7.75 and the 50 is worth $2.00. It's now worth $575 as a spread, and I've realized the majority of that spread's value, but there's still $1.25 of premium built in.

What's the best way to diminish my downside risk over the course of that second month? To insure myself against losing all of that $575. I could of course just sell it. But is there an alternative and better way to do it? The practical problem with just selling the option spread is that I might not get market prices if that option's market isn't completely liquid.

I've played around with shorting the underlying, selling a put, and buying an out of the money call option, which diminishes my downside risk significantly, but also lessens my profits at anything except right around where it's trading.
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12-09-2014 , 12:32 PM
IWM strong off the open, another day showing its potentially the leader.
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12-09-2014 , 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP17
IWM strong off the open, another day showing its potentially the leader.
Wow ripping, calls going crazy on that juiced IV.
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12-09-2014 , 02:56 PM
I am surprised nobody responded to my post. We all have retirement accounts in addition to our trading accounts, does anyone see any flaws with my theory or why this type of thing shouldn't be used by many (I don't mean individuals doing this themselves, but rather an ETF or mutual fund created that replicates it for people).
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12-09-2014 , 03:16 PM
Don't have retirement accounts...flushed them all out when I bought a house (when I could do so without penalty). I found the fact that I wouldn't be able to touch them for decades to be unsettling, especially when my options for investing (or betting, which is my primary occupation) are limited.
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12-09-2014 , 03:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by domer2
Don't have retirement accounts...flushed them all out when I bought a house (when I could do so without penalty). I found the fact that I wouldn't be able to touch them for decades to be unsettling, especially when my options for investing (or betting, which is my primary occupation) are limited.
You can borrow from your retirement account(s) and pay yourself the interest on them based on current rates, should you ever need to touch some of the money in there. Letting money grow without taxes is a pretty major benefit though.
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12-09-2014 , 04:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DickFuld
You can borrow from your retirement account(s) and pay yourself the interest on them based on current rates, should you ever need to touch some of the money in there. Letting money grow without taxes is a pretty major benefit though.
Can't borrow from an IRA, except for very short term. Don't know the intricacies of a 401k (never had one).
2014 Trading Thread Quote
12-09-2014 , 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP17
Some biotech trader bought 1k BLUE $45 calls at its lows early last week. Nice little 10x. Crazy action already today.
how were you able to see that someone has bought 1k BLUE $45 calls?
2014 Trading Thread Quote
12-09-2014 , 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DickFuld
I am surprised nobody responded to my post. We all have retirement accounts in addition to our trading accounts, does anyone see any flaws with my theory or why this type of thing shouldn't be used by many (I don't mean individuals doing this themselves, but rather an ETF or mutual fund created that replicates it for people).
What would the tax implications be compared to the regular portfolio?
2014 Trading Thread Quote
12-09-2014 , 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kimoser22
What would the tax implications be compared to the regular portfolio?
On a taxable account it is far more advantageous to just own SPY outright and hold it for years so that all gains are realized at the LTCG rate. With this strategy, you are rolling options every year and thus it would always be taxed at the ordinary income rate. Furthermore, margin would be cheaper than the time premium you pay on the calls, which you would have at your disposal in a taxable account anyway. Margin allows a regular account to go 100% long SPY, 60% long bond fund without much of an issue.

Basically, what I am trying to prove is that this theory is not only more profitable, but less risky as well, for any investment accounts that are both tax advantaged and unable to use margin.
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12-09-2014 , 07:57 PM
I'm not smart enough to comment on your theory Dick. I still don't really understand options. Only in theory, not in practice. That's the next step in my financial education. I do have about a 1/3 of my money in a SEP IRA though.

Here's a few stocks on my watch list. If anyone has knowledge, feel free to drop, or investigate:

MRVL
LUK
HIMX
ABBV
2014 Trading Thread Quote
12-09-2014 , 09:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by domer2
Don't have retirement accounts...flushed them all out when I bought a house (when I could do so without penalty). I found the fact that I wouldn't be able to touch them for decades to be unsettling, especially when my options for investing (or betting, which is my primary occupation) are limited.
tax free growth and the magic of compounding tho...
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12-09-2014 , 10:57 PM
Went long very large size on Sprint (S) intraday today at about 4.57. Just a short term swing based 2 things that all happened either today or yesterday:
- Management expects a strong quarter at the expense of their competitors.
- The CEOs of both Verizon and AT&T made negative statements about losing customers to competitors.
- T-Mobile announced a secondary offering that dilutes current shareholders.

This caused the whole telecom sector to get dragged down hard today, and I believe S to have been sold down too much irrationally and expect it to recover a bit upon this realization. Mostly just looking to pick up about 0.25 to 0.40/share though I'll re-evaluate tomorrow.
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12-10-2014 , 01:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DickFuld
I am surprised nobody responded to my post. We all have retirement accounts in addition to our trading accounts, does anyone see any flaws with my theory or why this type of thing shouldn't be used by many (I don't mean individuals doing this themselves, but rather an ETF or mutual fund created that replicates it for people).
Isn't the premise of this basically structured equity?
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