xposted in his coaching thread wo screenshots. i didnt want to post screenshots there was it is his coaching thread.

note how all 3 posts were made exactly 17 hrs ago and all of them are top searched players for the day.

Your Doom: My favorite player. I still love your old poker articles. Some of the best free articles around. I have a few of them linked on my Facebook fan page facebook dot com/YourDoomPoker
http://www.pokertableratings.com/sta...rch/mrsweets28

Your Doom: High stakes variance is the worst. Same thing happened to me. I mean just look at my 10/20+ graph. (YourDoom on Pokerstars)
http://www.pokertableratings.com/sta...search/isildur

Welcome back. What happened to your website? I can't get over how similar our graphs are. Keep crushing bud. - (YourDoom on Pokerstars)
http://www.pokertableratings.com/sta...earch/nanonoko

i was just going thro ptr as usual and quick succession of the comments on players picked from popular player rankings aling with the bolded parts just makes it look like spam to me.

Also all three posts were made 17 hrs ago as per PTR. this means you just made them all at the same time.

And if you personally knew these players then there is no need to put (your doom on stars) or your facebook page is there?

Where are these posts?

poker table ratings comments section

I don't get it, why is this a big deal?

why was my post in his coaching thread del? it had no screen shots was short and 2 the point.

its not relevant that a coach resorts to spamming ptr comments and prospective buyers cannot be made aware of the same?

Edit: based on a pm by another member it seems Doom del my posts in his coaching thread. i guess he had del power in his thread since he paid for it.

if it wasnt a big deal a simple explanation would be nice which is what i had hope for.

My post was also deleted. Here's what I took the time to re-write:

Yourdoom -

First of all, I respect you as a coach and as a poker player. Period. I'm sure you're a good player, and you're probably a very good coach as well. Kudos on your poker achievements.

However, people have noticed things,and asked some important questions in this thread. Actually, I seconded someone else's questions and have long tried to NOT say anything in your thread, despite lingering questions that MANY others posed re: new accounts giving reviews for your services with new sign up dates that sound suspiciously like your writing, as well as some other issues that might prompt some to post. Despite offering a "competing service" I've never jumped in on any of this out of respect for you, and because I think the quality of my service and my reviews have never been in doubt, and stand on their own two legs.

However, I think you should answer the questions people have posed about spamming, reviews, and deleting posts. Certainly it's overtly DISRESPECTFUL to another forum member (or more than one) who has done nothing to you to delete their post, especially when it was asking simple, answerable questions. I, too, pay for my listing, and have never deleted a post, or considered it. In fact, I never knew you could. If you have good answers, fine, I really don't want to give you or anyone else a hard time. Really, I can guarantee you that I will be the first to accept honest answers or explanations.

Here are the questions:

1) Did you delete my questions or anyone else's re: your spamming PTR walls of often-looked up players?
2) If so, why?
3) Have you ever made up reviews on gimmick accounts? And if not, why do you have so few reviews/graphs/testimonials from the 50 + students you say you have?
4) Since there's significant suspicion, you can easily prove this with IP addresses with the help of 2+2, no?
5) Would you please re-post my original post as well as those of other forum members in their entirety? They are valid and "feedback" on your services and practices is important for perspective clients, I think.

Here's the bottom line: Someone asked some questions that are reasonable about some tactics you may or may not have been employing including spamming, making up reviews, and deleting posts that are probably considered by most to be unsavory. The circumstances made me curious enough to say something, and so I posted for the first time in your thread. If you can answer the questions people have posed honestly, fine, I don't need or want to get into any sort of issue or tin-foil theories. I have plenty of happy students, and I don't need or want to drag you through the mud. I've never jumped into any accusations from other threads about you making gimmick accounts with reviews, or anything of the sort before out of respect and a sense that it wasn't my place. But once I see my comment deleted, I'm increasingly worried something off is happening.

I think it's fair to say that you should answer the questions that have been posed, and let everyone know what's up.

I'm looking forward to hearing from you.

Harry

Revlis has pretty much summed up everything in a manner better than i could do.

theres 2 things however i want to point out to powers that be:

#i was really afraid to bring this up in the first place. but i fig if i am so shaky to even ask simple questions about something that disturbed me then theres something really wrong with the whole system and not me.

#I also think the policy to let coaches del stuff in there thread wo a mods approval is plain wrong.

if a mod did approve then pls come forward and post your reasons. atleast i didnt get any pms .

i just realized my the 3rd screenshot is a dup of the second. sorry. here is the 3rd.

I bought a coaching thread (for way over a year now, I think) and I have never, and would never delete something from my thread. In fact, I didn't know you could. And I really don't think most/if any coaches do that.

yeah this guy is so annoying

Nilay,

Your post looked like spam which is why it was deleted by the 2+2 mods.
But if you really have an actual legit question for me, then I apologize and will now address it.

Yes, I write comments on PTR under the user name "Your Doom." Even though the user name is "Your Doom" I also signed the comments "YourDoom from PokerStars" just to make sure everyone knew it was me. I felt it should be clear that that is me and my account, and didn't think that I even needed to respond to the question of if I wrote those comments.

I will 100% confirm that I wrote three comments on PTR, 1) welcoming nanonoko back to online poker and asking him about his website, 2) Saying Phil Galfond is my favorite player and 3) complaining about high stakes variance.

Anyway, case closed

so you made 3 posts on most searched players all at the exact same time and the first one is plugging your facebook.another is comparing your grpah to nano, and the 3rd is again asking ppl to check out your graph by comparing your bad run at 10/20.

none of these look like normal posts(each of them has a plug of some kind) someone would make towards another player in a friendly spirit.

too much of a coincidence. The biggest factor however is all posts were made at the exact same time. So you just suddenly decide you are going to comment on 3 most searched players walls and all on the same day within the same hr.

I dont buy it.

no case is not closed. this is just blatant spam. thats my opinion and its not going to change. Everyone else is entitled to theres. the screenshots are there for everyone to see.

reg the mod that del my post he also del revlis and another guy. i cannoot see how he comes to conclusion that all 3 are spam.

so ironical i report a coach spamming ptr wall and a mod just deletes my post without even bothering to pm me.

whats the def of spam 2p2? i have a legit concern and voice it on his thread and you just del it? isnt it better to let the coach address the Q i have and then let prospective students decide for themselves.

sorry state of affair at 2p2.

I don't realy get why spaming ptr is so bad?
I mean he is a good winer trying to advertise his product.
And if mod deleted those posts in his coaching profile then you are def barking up the wrong tree

you dont get why spamming would be considered bad?
i have nothing to say to you. we r on diff planets.

What did PTR say when you reported his posts for spam?

Based on what PTR considers those comments to be, that should be a good way to start discussion here (at least in my opinion).

Coaches cannot delete their own comments as far as I know.

I did not delete the posts in question, an admin did at the request of YourDoom.

However, we can keep this thread open and get to the bottom of it, starting with letting us know what PTR said.

Thanks.

Side note: A mod deleting comments doesn't necessarily mean he feels the posts are wrong, they could just be claims that aren't fully backed up, don't seem appropriate in the thread or maybe the user attacked the coach and anything valid he is saying is being overshadowed by a flawed approach. In any case, if you ever feel a post was deleted for the wrong reason, anywhere, PM the mod that deleted it or if you don't want to do that PM a red admin such as Mat Sklansky or Ryan Beal.

i was not aware that you could report posts to PTR. So nothing reported.and i dont care what ptr thinks. i do care what 2p2 thinks as i have a certain attachment to this place

so yourdoom did request the del. that itself sends me warning bells. i didnt even post screen shots in his coachign thread as i didnt want to derail. i just wanted some simple answers. all he had to do is provide simple answers.



FWIW i have seen many comments on PTR and none of them are trying to get people to visit a facebook page or virtually begging them to check out graphs.

this coupled with the fact that all 3 posts were made at the same time indicated the posts were made with the idea of directing more traffic to his facebook and to his ptr. check the screen shots all 3 posts made exactly 17 hrs ago

he has been plugging his website hard on his ptr page which I guess is fine to a extent. So basically if he could get anyone to check his graph they would see his website and that was the actual endgame IMO

the post i made on his coaching thread is a exact carbon copy of my OP except the screen shots. Do you think thats attacking or flawed?. i asked valid Q in a polite way, i further showed restraint by *not* posting screenshots knowing it was his coaching thread. i am not out to get anyone

i never even knew who Yourdoom was few days ago. i was just browsing ptr and i vaguely remembered yourdoom as someone with a coaching listing.

i ignored the first comment but by the third comment it was just too much coincidence to not make a post about it

If PTR allows the posts then there is nothing really wrong with them.

For example, linking to your own product as a regular user on 2p2 is not allowed. On youtube, you can include a link to your website in your video (for the most part you can, there are some restrictions I believe). Most video sites do not allow that, however.

So I really think it matters in the context of the site in question.

There have been FTP, Cereus, PokerStars and many other companies shilling posts on 2p2 at one point or another. So when a single coach may have made at least 3 questionable posts on PTR, you can see why we might want to take a look at what PTR considers those posts to be based on the guidelines of their site.

Of course as a user, if you're not comfortable with a coach that promotes themselves in this way, you can refrain from seeking his/her coaching. But I personally think further information is needed before we label this anything other than a very basic form of self promotion.

Maybe also google around to see if this is more widespread, or just three isolated incidents of self promotion on a third party tracking site that may or may not be allowed (and may or may not even be severe).

posts have not been reported on PTR. he can post what he wants on his profile but posting on most searched players with facebook plugs is basically a way to driect traffic from ppl who search those top players.

thats just no the right way to go about it specially for a winning coach

I can also confirm that this morning I had 3 eggs this morning (1 yolk) and a mini whole wheat bagel for breakfast. Future rumors and scandal which may arise on the topic that I may of indeed had pancakes are completely false. (Sorry I couldn't resist)

i gave you respect on your coaching thread by not posting the screen shots. Kindly keep your breakfast out of my thread if possible.

You may be correct, however, many people simply post on these forums in high traffic areas as a way to increase their exposure. With a "see my coach listing" under title, you will undoubtedly get some coaching listing views just by posting in news, views and gossip or BBV (or other non strategy forums). This is allowed however.

His posts on PTR do seem self promotional, but he's not deceiving anybody is he? He's making those comments on his very own name. It may look silly or seem silly, but it may also be extremely minor to neutral in the eyes of PTR.

I've deleted posts from reputable business owners or players in this forum that were (in my opinion) worse. Usually a warning the first time is appropriate when I do that here.

C'mon, judgement, awareness. Poking fun at users that obviously feel strongly about something that is possibly to likely against the rules of PTR and looks a bit silly is probably not the best course of action here.

What bugs me the most is the lack of reviews from a video series that "is selling like crazy". Obviously the business plan doesn't indicate that he's making as much as he says he makes with his coaching / videos.

I was definitely interested in the video series and I still am, but this whole thing starts to look really shady.

Fwiw I offered him a deal to send me the videos upfront because of a blatant lack of reviews (it was very shortly after he started selling them), and in exchange i'd pay once i've watched them + post a long and complete review on his thread. "His business partner wouldn't ever allow it", he said. He had nothing to lose, I don't really understand it.

Anyways, it's pretty clear to me that :
- most of the reviews made by <50 posts users, especially the ones having 4 posts total and those only in his thread are fakes
- the fact that most of these defend the coach like they have something to gain from it, almost defending his coaching more then YourDoom himself, really gives credit to the theory that it's fake

Also, fwiw, the free sample was 15 min long, the concept lasted 2 min, rest was about "how greatly it can help us".

I don't feel like having no business plan is a good thing, but this just looks like advertising at all cost with shady moves and probably lies over the place. Why simply delete the posts you don't like instead of giving answers, and where are all those 50+ happy students ?

I'd say more than half of the coaches in the cash coach section are like this. A few months back all you would see is;

1. blatant bumping attemps
2. shameless brags
3. questionable reviews from unknown posters
4. deceiving thread titles
5. all the coaches copying each others ideas (ie. giveaway sessions, video courses)


All fair play of course, but it seems like more than half of them do more marketing than playing poker. I used to be one of maybe 5 coaches listed in the forum when it started, so I watched in transistion into a craiglist-esque format, which is why I had mine taken down last spring. Hard to compete legitimately with all the heavy internet-marketers. Assuming most of the coaches are american, this is only going to get more fierce as they cant play. They aren't doing anything against the rules, or shady, but that doesn't invalidate my points. It's more funny than anything, its like watching late night TV infomorcials, "million dollar poker system only $19.99 if you call now!".

- Suspicious reviews are certainly a totally different story compared to what the OP listed. I'll take a look at this, I see the back and forth in the coaching thread about it now (fwiw I don't usually patrol those threads or anything unless somebody brings something to my attention via a post report or PM).

- I suspect a large % of businesses in general overhype their own product. Buyer beware, actions and facts are to be given more credit than the seller's opinion of the quality of their product.

- Contacting a mod is probably a better idea in this type of case though. What if his reviews are legitimate? A great deal of reviews in anybody's thread (particularly the double digit or low three digit hourly rate coaches) seems to be from lower post count users. That's because there are quite a lot of lurker (non posting) users around and a lot of the listings here on 2p2 show up quite high in the google results for various terms, so they attract new users to 2p2 all the time.

The last point isn't meant to say that your claims are unfounded, that I do not know. It's just that if they turn out to be unfounded, how is that then fair to the coach? That's all I ask (just like if the coach says you're picking on him, then we find out the claims are true, how can the coach then say anything about it being unfair?).

Good points again here (same with the last post I quoted).

1. Coaches are allowed to bump. Previous rules used to be never, then turned into every month or 2 weeks I believe? Now it's supposed to be 2 weeks I think but it's fairly loose, it is the coach's paid advertisement, so the main concern with bumping is just going to be "what is fair to the other coaches in the advertising forum?"

2. Yep, this goes along with the overhype that you and the last poster mention and happens a lot in business generally. Buyer beware I think again. Though you see plenty of worshiped successful poker players make some silly brags, so I'm not sure quality of coaching/player and obnoxiousness of the brag are related. More of a personality reflection I think.

3. This is definitely something that if you think is suspicious please report to a mod in any cases. I don't remember if the BW case had any shill reviews in it (I want to say no, I think he just ran a lie for awhile), but a certain % of lying coaches are going to likely get fake reviews posted so this might be one way of early detection.

4. I see the "10bb winner" and "1,000,000 winner" type titles in there. I don't know if they are inaccurate or not. When researching a coach for yourself, if you come across any that are outrageous/incorrect in your eyes, let a moderator such as myself know and we'll look into it further. We've actually had a case just as described above recently that we're still looking into.

5. This happens everywhere, originality has some value, but is not the sole value in an action. Training sites, message boards, carmakers, etc. will copy the more effective ideas that they see all the time. It can be annoying in some people's opinion, but I see no difference between a bunch of coaches offering slashed rates or temporary discounts post black friday and a bunch of car dealers doing the same thing in recent years (here in USA at least). The retail shopping industry (think clothing stores) do this to a much more annoying and hard to decipher degree in my mind, as I think it's pretty easy to figure out what each coach is charging in the ad section per hour/review and compare them that way.

---

Some good points overall, thank you. I think one other factor here is that most coaches probably are not very strong in marketing.

By the way, I've contacted PTR to find out their policy on those three posts and if they are violating their policy, to what extent they are in violation.