Do I need a coach? What do I need? I moved from NL10 to NL25 in the endings of february... Couldn't beat it... I've been crushing NL10 for over 100k hands at 4bb/100 (5bb/100 in my last 20k hands)...

But something is wrong with NL25, something I don't know... I lost 6 buyins, went down again to NL10, kept crushing it, came back to NL25 with like $800 in my bankroll, and now again the same problem, I started winning but now I'm losing, I have like 1.20bb/100 after 24k hands in NL25, but I've been getting my a** ripped in the last 10k hands, it's like people adjust, or bots, I don't know, I feel there is something there I don't understand about the game and others do... Do I need coaching? Do I need more preparation to play NL25?

My bankroll is at $920 now and I feel like playing NL10 again, cause I lost $150 in the last 2 days here at NL25 and it really sucks. I don't get it.

Thanks for any suggestions!

How many tables are you playing? 4bb/100 sounds like something I'd expect a multitabling nit to make.

I'm playing 10 tables... Probably a nit, my stats are 15/12 with a 3% 3bet. Those stats work great at NL10 but not sure about NL25... I've been thinking though that probably tomorrow I should start playing less tables at NL25 until I beat the level... Maybe that is the problem?

edit: I play full ring

Cut down on tables and concentrate on reading people.

is this 6m or fr?

also, sample size. start participating in the nl forums here.

fr...

I guess I'll cut down on number of tables.... I'll start with like 4 tomorrow and see how that goes... But it sucks, this last 10k hands it's been like I can't play... People don't let me play, and this game is so hard to figure out if you are just running bad or if you are just being outplayed, today I just made a couple of calls I never make but just to see if people are bluffing me all the time or if my folds are right; the truth is I was beat. But it's hard to know for all the other times...

My sample size is small --24k hands at NL25--, but I already had 30k hands in poker tracker in another site and I was down like 6 buyins... Right now I'm up $80 in 25k hands at NL25, but obviously I'm not happy with that, and as I said before, it's hard to know if it just a bad downswing or if I'm not ready for NL25... (if we add up both databases I have like 55k hands at NL25 and I'm down 3 buyins which clearly shows I'm not winning at this level, I just survive with bonuses+rakeback).

This is bad.

You should never be calling down for 'information' with no equity in a pot (unless you're getting like 100:1 or something where the information may actually be worth the $ value).

Never assume ppl are playing back at you until you have some evidence to show that they are. Otherwise you'll just outlevel yourself. This is a VERY common leak that players pick-up when moving up levels.

I don't think it's that bad to call down for "educational value" once in awhile.

^^Agree. It doesn't sounds like the OP called down as part of his regular play per say, he called down to see if he was actually beat to try and help his mental state. But, it doesn't sound like it worked.

there are two possibilities for this ...

for one as you should know higher stakes mean better players. So if you arent making out as good at 25NL like you were at 10NL, you may need to critique your game. You know how you were making silly calls when opponent had you beat? You want to be your opponent here. You want to have best hand and have your opponent be making those silly calls. So when you make those calls as "educational value" as another put it, you're the player they're making money off of. You cant be making those bad calls. And certainly dont make any educational improvements at a higher stake. You should already have this game down and know each play by heart if you're going to be successful at higher limits.

the second reason is to put in more hands. I dont like to have a view of any limit until at least 50k hands because from 40k to 50k hands your bb/100 rate still makes large fluctuations. 100k is more preferred. So although you're on a downswing these 25k hands, the same has happened to me. There are these stretches and I'm sure it happens most often when you start a new level. I have a graph of 50k hands at 5NL. From 0 to 25k hands I broke even. But from 25k hands to 50k hands I made out huge.

So my advice is to improve your game some or keep going with 25NL until you put in 50k hands. You could have a HUGE day any moment now and your bb/100 can quickly go from 1.2 to 3.0 in 3k hands. Stop making those bad plays though. Play the best you can and expect your opponent to be doing the same. They're playing the hand, not the player so dont think they're taking anything out on you and if they were ... eventually they'll run into a brick wall.

at nl1 or something?

It might help to tell you that if you had a consistant win rate of 4 BB at a fr table over a large sum of hands at 25NL, the you would fall under the top .01% of players that level. There are pretty much no people with that kind of track record at that level. The game has gotten very tight and efficient. You will be fighting with flips, sets vs. draws, and check raises galore.

In my view point, 25NL is like the TheLadders.com commercial where the guy is playing tennis and then all of a sudden a million people try to hit the same ball he is hitting. It is a really tough game and its equally hard to stand out.

In the grand scheme of things, I dont think there is a good answer. The game has just gotten really tight and until more dead money comes into the poker world, there just isnt much you can do. If you are playing at Stars, this is especially true.

If you want to follow a good 25NL player, check out "alliinwith22". He plays a midstack game (which I have tried and broke even over 100k hands)

Thoughts?

NL 25 isnt a tough game... if you arent beating it get a coach... I also recommend that anyone whose a consistent losing player to purchase coaching from a winning player at there desired stake level, you'd be blown away at how often you're not focusing on the right things/thinking the right way... it doesnt take a genius to beat nl25.. it just takes someone whose focusing on winning the way the game is supposed to be played... the same can be said for any form of poker.. (I've beated up nl200 sh and sng's up to 104, and im obv a poker coach, but it really is a serious recommendation)

I'm sorry, but this is simply wrong. If you can't spot the fish at 25NL FR, there is something seriously wrong. Both my wife and I in the past 3 months have played over 100k hands at 25NL FR running 15/13 and 28/26 respectively and both beat the level for over 5bb/100 hands.

I am slowing up my poker playing a lot, but I went from break-even at 25NL FR to beating it for 10bb+/100 hands over 100k hands in the span of 4-5 months by spending time in the microstakes forum (thread about my poker playing: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...-tl-dr-752396/) The information and resources are free and available in the microstakes forum if you are willing to spend the time and the energy to learn.

OP: I would start off by reading the COTW threads in the microstakes forum. I would look at some of the hand history posts made by some of the microstakes regs. If you think that you can learn by self-study and putting in the time, I think its worth spending a month or so working on your game with out a coach. For starters, its cheaper. Secondly, I'm a firm believer that coaching works best if the student has already thought about the material long and hard before asking for help. mpethybridge and splitsuit offer a combined database analysis/coaching deal which might be well worth your time if you have already done this.

I hate to say it, but if view 25NL as this tough youll never make it past 100NL because its a picnic compared to what lies at higher stakes.

To OP, I have a similar problem as you do except at 600NL and 1000NL. I have broke even at both levels over 65k hands, although I was a big winner at 200NL and 400NL in the past. I seem to keep running into big hands over and over again. KK > QQ, everytime I 3-bet an overpair opponent calls and spikes a set. But I also know I played bad. My advice is to get a coach to help you go over some hands, because it sounds like you've hit a bit of a brick wall in your skill level development. Im currently doing the same thing.

your a -2.2 BB/100 loser over 24k hands at 25 NL. Unless there is another name you play under......if you beat 25 NL for +5 BB/100, you would be in the ultimate ginder list on pokertableratings.com as one of the top grinders at 25NL.

On another note, I dont think the game is hard, I think what has made it hard for me is that I chose to 24 table 25 NL (maybe because I have ADHD), so I think it isnt an issue of whether I can beat it, its more of an issue of how many mistakes am I making 24 tabling that I wouldnt normally across 8 tables or so. I will try to bring it down a few tables and see where it gets me.

whats your hand history at 25NL? Whats your Screen name? I would like to look up your hand histories to see your playing style and maybe pick up a couple things....

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/78...-tl-dr-752396/

*yawn*

very cool!! Congrats. I dabbled in Rush a little bit, I mainly left FTP because i never set up rake-back on my account and they said I wasnt able to, until recently when they sent me a promo email, I responded and told them I was done with FTP unless I could get rakeback. They hooked me up with rakebackpro, and now I am thinking of going back. I hear the games are a lot softer on FTP than they are on PS. And like you, I was thinking of RUSH as being a "new" game that would be nice to get into during in infancy. Do you think rush is still soft, or are regulars starting to pile in?

I don't think you can win at any higher rate at Rush than normal FR games with solid fundamentals alone. The number of fish is about the same, maybe a tad more at Rush, but you lose the edge that you get for being able to take specific value lines against different kinds of fish because you don't have as good of a HUD. That having been said, if you have the fundamentals down, regs are so much more exploitable in Rush than normal FR as I showed with my experiment. Truth be told I still consider myself a mediocre hand reader/post flop player, probably would play better at FR if I went back to it than I did in the past, but Rush is fresh/new/more exploitable at this point.

I havent played 25NL in years, in fact lowest ive played in the last 5 years is 200NL. As for wanting to see my playing style etc I dont coach anymore, so sorry.

if you dont believe me tableratings evil_ecstasy_x. Yes its pretty ****ty right now due to me playing too much 5/10 and losing a lot there, as well as PLO losses.

ill coach you for 25$ / hour/sesh

He wasn't talking to me, he was responding to the guy that said it is tough... I don't think it's tough, but I have to learn a lot of things to beat it... In the last 27k hands I've been winning at 2.7bb/100, I've been studying new stuff this last week, now I'm on a downswing.

My plans are making as much money as possible. My objective right now is getting to NL100 by August of this year. I think it's really possible.

I do enjoy it... Except for the last couple of days, downswings make me hate it :P

loosen up on button and cutoff start stealing more. You are playing too nitty 3 bet people IP with fold to 3 bets over 60. strive to play like 18/15 at least. You have to steal a lot of blinds to win.