assuming no one is ever going to get any money off FTP (which is possible) it kind of sucks for the coach if he ends up $800 out of pocket if he refunds you. As it stands the fairest solution imo is that the status quo remains until the FTP situation is resolved.

Given that the money is stuck on FTP I think his point of view (the coach) is reasonable. If I were you I would find a way to sell the hours to someone else.

Over the years I've never turned down someone wanting a refund, but I will deduct the discount they got on multiple hours booked.

There is also the point that you transferred the money from FTP so it would be locked up in FTP anyway even if you hadn't paid for coaching

paying with ftp money is like paying with a credit card. A business will not give you cash refunds, they will either credit back your credit card or give you store credit. I think that if he is willing to give you money back once ftp money is released then you will have to wait unless as someone else has said before, offer to sell your 2 hours of coaching to someone else.

All paid coaching is just short of a con IMHO.

That said, you are the one that changed the terms: Sell the coaching to someone else or take the bad beat like a champ and move on.

100% side with coach.

Imo he has no obligation what so over. His offer of paying you back once the FTP is back is very charitable. Your options are imo to try to sell the coaching or to bargain with him (which he may or not accept of course).

Btw no surprise that he don't want to refund. Paying few hundos/hour for coaching in poker is almost never worth it imo and the coach knows it.

My 2 cent:

You paid upfront for a service (X dollars for Y hours). He is willing to provide the service (in full) you hired him for.

- You have no reasonable dispute here unless any terms where agreed.


You change your mind, still have some hours of coaching to receive. Coach is willing to continue the service he was hired for.

- He is nice to say he would refund you if wasn't for FTP... blah blah blah. But thats him just being nice! If he (really) wants to repay you he could, but thats up to him. Regardless of where the money came from.

coach is being more than fair. 'No refunds' would be a perfectly reasonable business practice. That he will refund you later if ftp dollars are returned is more than generous.

I can't believe the answers in this thread. It is obvious that OP is entitled to his money back. The method of payment is completely irrelevant. Presumably the coach asked for an amount of $ not FTP$. The fact that he paid the money on FTP does not matter, only the fact that he paid the money matters. If you want to get super technical, OP is at the very least owed the amount on FTP he paid discounted by the applicable vig for transferring FTP money to real money AT THE TIME HE PAID THE COACH.

The fact that the money was paid on FTP is immaterial. If OP had paid cash and then the coach's wallet were stolen, would he also not be entitled to a refund? The coach chose to accept FTP money as payment and chose to accept the risk of keeping it on an online poker site. That should have no bearing on whether the student gets a refund.

It is also not the coach's problem that the student chose not to continue with poker. If the student received any benefit from pre-paying, if the coach has a stated "no refunds policy", or if the coach only sells coaching in 6-hour blocks, then the student is out of luck. If the student would otherwise be entitled to a refund, though, then the fact that he paid via FTP shouldn't change that.

FWIW I offered all of my students, even the non-American ones, prorated refunds on unused portions of coaching packages (for which they DID receive a discount as a result of prepaying) on April 16th, regardless of the original form of payment.

Why would he pay that much money up front for 6 lessons if it wasn't sold in a block? That just wouldn't make much sense imo. I'm pretty sure he paid for the lessons in a block in which case he of course shouldn't receive anything back because 6 lessons were agreed upon. The money is no longer his.

If he just paid for 1 hr lessons in advance I would break it down like this. If he wouldn't have cashed out the money from FTP before black friday he should receive no refund. The reason is he would've lost out on that money anyway, so basically he isn't losing anything, and the coach hasn't gained anything either because the money is locked up in ftp. Now ofc this comes down to OP's word which makes it murky.

If OP would've cashed out before black friday this specific money, then he's losing out on 800 dollars or whatever, however if the coach pays out 800, then the coach losses 800 dollars and the student breaks even. Therefore the most reasonable solution is the student should be paid back 400, so the coach and the student both lose 400 apiece.

I've had students do it before. I guess they just find it easier than making a number of smaller transfers, especially if paying by wire where there's a fee associated with each transfer. Not to mention the fact that there's no risk since I'm willing to give refunds upon request!

This is ridiculous. As you say, it's impossible to determine, and besides it shouldn't matter. What about my wallet analogy? If you pay me cash and my wallet is stolen, does that nullify your right to a refund? The coach chose to keep the money on FTP, and he needs to assume responsibility for the associated risk. If he was going to treat FTP money differently, he needed to make that clear with a policy upfront.

What if there hasn't been an agreement on whether refunds are able to be given? In this case the coach is willing to coach the hours as agreed upon. In my opinion paying up front in a lot of ways is implying that you are buying 6 hours of coaching. So without a refund policy enacted I could see how it could be ruled that he's already bought those lessons. However I think it should just be split 50/50 anyway if the refund wasn't talked about. If there were no stipulations in place just go half and half to be fair.

Also however don't you see how it works the other way around? Look at it from the coaches perspective. The coach wouldn't have to fork over 800 dollars if the student never paid him in advance. If anything both people should have to eat this loss. I mean it's like if say you had 50k on you and you were walking in a bad neighborhood and you asked me if I could hold onto that money for you. Let's say we go into a store and I get robbed for that 50k. Am I really at fault and should I owe you 50k? The coach was just holding the money if anything and he got robbed.

If there is a refund policy then you would be entitled to that refund.

I thought this entire thread was an elaborate level before Foucault posted, seriously wtf is going on? Anyway, it is very common for service providers, like lawyers and poker coaches (I've been both and done it in both scenarios), to take a payment up front while charging an hourly rate. As the service provider you do it to satisfy yourself that the customer is serious, has the means to pay, and so that you never have to chase down the customer for money.

This

Saying im not willing to compromise is not correct, i would be happy to discuss a discount or sell to someone else for less $

It was a 6 hour block package that cost $325 an hour which was discounted from $350 i think he charges for an hour. Thats obviously something really important that ive overlooked and was a silly mistake.

So over the 6 hours thats a $150 discount, how should that be handled ?

I'd like to say upto this point the coach has been really helpful and i have no hard feelings, its just a disagreement that i would like sorted out.

coach is 100% right here imo.

basically because u had no refund agreement. and under that, probably it wouldnt be valid anyways.

but that sucks, and im sure it will work itself out, sell the hours to someone seems to be the best idea right now.

gl.

Well if you have booked a block of lessons then you are not even entitled to a refund at all imo.

What is the point of coaches offering discounted rates for booking more lessons if people are just going to cancel after a couple and ask for the rest of their money back?

The fact that the coach is willing to work with you says a lot about him.

The best thing to do would be to sell the lessons in the market place. Say for $150 less than they are worth and they will be snapped up.

Given it was a package deal you signed up for X amount of lessons for 1950 dollars, look at it as a single purchase. Like if you went in the store and bought a 6 pack of coke for 3 dollars, instead of 1 can of coke for .65 cents or whatever. They're selling at a discount because you're buying more of their product.

Your only options left are to take his coaching, or sell it. Sounds like you should sell it to someone else.

Ok seems consensus is im screwed, i can deal with that.

Just have to find a buyer now i guess.

People buy coaching all the time in the marketplace. You should be fine. gl

Yeah, I accept that, I just think the coach seems reasonable in the correspondence posted and is trying to be helpful and fair.

I think this post is excellent - it is reasonable for the coach to try to refund money to the same place he received it as much as practical.


I think the solution here is to agree to a resolution with the coach, because the legalities of the situation are not clear cut and because it is most likely to give an outcome that everyone is happy with.

I think people who claim that the FTP money situation does not matter needs to have some compassion though. Think of it this way:

Coach received money on FTP. Coach didn't want to cash out until he rendered his services or he can easily return the money if he couldn't. Then he got robbed and can't pay. You should at least have some compassion and let him have a chance to get the money back or something.