Many have said the bots are exploitable (as a stand alone strategy, collusion aside).
You don't need large data or play high stakes to see and understand the types of lines that they take and the EV they accomplish by taking them.

I haven't been playing on ignition but here is a hand history from ACR where I suspect SB is bot based on similar lines observed.





Here we recognize bot turn range for small size is strong so we ship the FH




I don't know if the bot is GTO/GTO-ish or not, highly doubt it based on what I've seen but what I do know is there are obvious adjustments you can make against it.
So its kinda funny to log onto the forums and see ppl posting that the bot is unbeatable GTO, probably you're self owning against a fixed strategy

Ralph, you were trying to argue this point with a 20knl reg in the NVG thread, who is far better versed with these bots than any of us. I think it has been pretty well established how these bots are playing, they are basically using solvers on the fly, while also being able to exploit player pools and individual players based on their stats. You keep suggesting they have a fixed strategy, they don't, it's highly adaptable to player profiles.

Of course any bot that exploits player pools is also going to be semi exploitable itself but absolutely no where near to the degree all the 200nl regs in this thread seem to think. This point is being made ad-nauseam everywhere but you post a 2 hand sample to show how easy it is to exploit the bots because turn small bets are always value. I can't tell if you're trolling or not? They use small sizing as bluff too? They also seem to be updating/adjusting/perfecting the bot strategies too. I'm not saying the games aren't beatable, It really depends on the make up of the tables you are playing, but you guys are not crushing the bots or anything close to it.

Who is the 20k reg?

Haha not sure why the hostility. I trust my own judgement not appeals to authority. Happy to receive an invite to the 20knl regs discord group tho xD

Sorry if I have come off hostile I didn't think I was, but at the same time you just ignore the HH's I posted (which is the same sample size that you posted) and revert to "I trust my own judgement". Why trust your own judgement when you can instead rely on evidence and statistics? (The bot cash game HH's are all posted in the ACR thread in NVG).

Logical fallacies bug me, and you guys are just perpetuating your own. In regards to appealing to authority, historically this site has been full of lower stake regs telling higher stake regs that they are wrong about x or Y or that in reality they suck, invariably the lower stake regs take is just poor. I trust the judgement of all those involved who have removed their cfp students, or stopped grinding themselves, due to how good the bots are.

I mean, my take is obvious because of how dumb the counter argument is. You are effectively saying the games are easier due to how exploitable the bots are, and due to this you are winning at 10bb/100.

This can all be plugged in to variance calculators. you could prob grind up a 500nl roll with one solid month of grinding 200. Even better, you can play long hours short handed with the bots at 200z and crush the hourly even harder. You can easily take a few buy in shot take at 500 while doing this, then wait for the old small turn cbet in 3 bet pot, jam your nuts and stack the bots strong value range.

As you move up stakes you will also likely play in player pools that are even more bot heavy, another huge win for people who can exploit them. You will have infinite offers to stake you for 1k and 2knl after that if you're gun shy there. /s

So yeah, my take is obvious because you have a choice to pursue a hugely negative ev path of continuing some random non consequential bankroll challenge vs the insane positive ev route of taking a small equity risk to grind $50k- $100k+ months at 2knl. But you choose the BR challenge. It's the equivalent of people saying "I knew BTC was going to go from 1c to $50k... so I bought none".

Again, to clarify I have nothing against you or ralph but just take a step back and realise how insane your take is.

I didnÂ’t ignore the hand histories you posted dummy i ignored you because you made a straw man saying that I said the bot canÂ’t have a bluff in a small turn size. If you actually read what I wrote you would notice I chose my words carefully, simply saying that I noticed things the bot does that you can adjust to.
You seem desperate to prove some kind of point about how much better you are at poker because you play higher stakes. It’s the same insecure energy that concludes bots are unbeatable so may as well give up. I’m totally cool with it if you give up

This couldn't be further from the truth, there is a very good chance that you are a better player than me. I suck but I think what I'm suggesting is I know I suck.

There's a lot to unpack in your post. You say you counter the bots then proceeded to post 2 hands where an assumed bot c-bet turn small with strong value range in a 3bp, so in a later hand you jammed over a similar bet sizing ergo exploiting it's strat. I posted HH's basically showing that they are not using that sizing with just strong hands, so your exploit was nothing more than running in to the strong part of a bots range while playing that strategy. No straw argument needed. You inferred information from a sample size of 1 hand (am sure you will have some new caveats to the hands in questions).

The whole proposition of what you and Doodoo are saying is insane. You guys could all be crushing 2k with your forbidden knowledge but choose to play 200 instead.

I will also say that I do think the games are beatable but (at $1k/$2k) only with some impeccable table selection. Matt Marinelli can prob do ok but not worth his time, I certainly can not.

Anyway, I didn't mean to be so combative. I would prefer you or any other reg here to win in these games than bot farm. So best of luck, and I would be more than happy for you to prove me wrong by moving up stakes and crushing. so gl gl.

How many CFP's have you even been in? I'm going to guess zero.

I've been in two.

BTS for 3 years and Metagame for a little under a year. CFP students in general are not good, of course they pulled them from the bot infested sites. CFP students are the types of people that grind 100k hands a month but don't even improve their game because they are so brain dead and fixated on their monthly target goals. This is why I was kicked out of both of mine btw. You can't get better at the game if you are focused on volume over process.

The coaches in CFP's are usually not very good either (except the main head coach - the underling coaches are very mediocre).

I remember being in Metagame and asking the 500nl coach some basic math problem on bluffing formulas and he literally just said "lol math." I mean these are the people you are talking too?

I was in a discord of 200 people and besides myself, there was probably only 1 or 2 other people that actively asked for relevant MDA in the MDA discord. 95% of all CFP students just follow the advice of their coaches and don't think critically. Yes those types of people would get absolutely destroyed vs bots.

And maybe with the exception of bitb - the head CFP coaches don't even play or play very little.

Anyways, I don't claim to have all bot strategies figured out but there are a bunch of spots that I know can easily be counter exploited. You need a completely separate strategy from your reg and fish strategy so I can why people wouldn't want to bother.

But as for me, I plan on staying on Ignition indefinitely to beat them at their own game.

Ponty, you are being as reasonable as possible in these exchanges. Logic is not working against these two.

Ralph, you came into the bodog thread, posted two hand histories from another site against a player you think is a bot and said this:

"I think its kinda funny to log onto the forums and see ppl posting that the bot is unbeatable GTO, probably you're self owning against a fixed strategy"

You received a perfectly normal response addressing the actual substance of your claims, but instead focused on the "appeal to authority" aspect of it, then called him a dummy when he pointed out the error in your reasoning.

DooDoo, agree with everything Ponty said. You tell everyone the consensus opinion is wrong, that the games are crushable for 10bb/100 and that you're moving down to 5nl with 5 buy ins for a challenge.

I mean if anything the hands ralph posted shows bot crushing, bot lost 1 buy in with trips top kicker vs top boat and won a 450bb pot by using its induce size

You've been in two c4ps and you're still only playing 200nl Iggy? Sounds like you might have been one of the shitter regs in the group that youre claiming there are.

200nl players and below in this forum always seem to be master exploiters but never get to high stakes. It's weird.

TY and to you as well.
I'm not basing my bot ideas off one or two hands, I just posted those to make a point, and I feel I made that point, but anyone can takeaway what they want, including from the hands you posted, which are also interesting.




Here's a hand where a bot defends a trash gutter against a 25% cbet. Solver mixes a small amount of call and raise, but basically it's a pure fold.

From a software standpoint it's much easier to code "never fold a straight draw otf against bet size less than or equal to 25%"
than to code
"never fold a straight draw otf against bet size 25% or less except sometimes mix but only on certain boards etc. etc."

That's the main reason why I find it unlikely, but not impossible, that the bot has the capabilities you're suggesting, including performing GTO as well as tailoring its strategy to individual opponent stats.

When I ran this with slightly different preflop ranges, it's mixing raise/call/fold 38/52/10 with Td6d

He doesn't play for the money. He spends all this time studying and improving not to make more money though.

He should be exploiting bots for ungodly hourlies but instead he has a point to prove doing some bs br challenge. What point no one knows.

Sure, most anything is justifiable in a solver if you fiddle with parameters. ThatÂ’s kind of the point, that obv calling T6dd is not a big mistake if at all, and when you program a bot youÂ’re aiming for simplicity and donÂ’t mind sacrificing small amounts of EV in some spots.

Again, what is being claimed the bot can do is extraordinarily complicated from a coding perspective and itÂ’s much more likely that the bot plays a fixed strategy using exploitative ideas and grinds mass volume which is the point of building a bot and is how you make money in poker anyway rather than being some kind of gto god.

You're saying the bots aren't playing GTO but your example is a hand they play GTO

They played a bit of 5knl so they're probably interested in playing well

As a software dev I'd be very surprised if they weren't programmed with CFR or pre-solves but I'd guess there's no ML or neural nets involved

I said I doubted it and you’re really not getting it and that’s ok

I think there is an important point to be made here. The company that runs bot farm supposedly has over 150 employees, It is probably safe to assume that these aren't coded for simplicity but rather for productivity.

You used the hand as a way of providing evidence the bots play a fixed (non GTO) strat, but if you have the wrong parameters, it is not evidence of what you claim.

I don't know if the bots can do things that are "extraordinarily complicated from a coding perspective", but several regs are saying they are and you are showing that hand as evidence they are not.

Lol my parameters are wrong because they’re not the ones you used?

I'm saying that when I can fiddle with wide ranges to put that hand squarely inside a GTO solution, it is more likely you used the "wrong" parameters than "the bots are playing fixed strat".

I'm not even saying you're wrong! Just that the hand you showed is not strong evidence.

Do you have any more hands like this?

Possibly of that same type (SRP), I already didnÂ’t find much and that bot account is no longer active so I am gathering hands from new profiles but there is some time lag because I have to identify them first. But yeah I do have a number of hands of bots doing things that arenÂ’t solver .
As far as stuff IÂ’ve posted, there are several hands in the ACR botfarm thread showing obvious preflop mistakes that the $40 MTT bots are making. loose aggressive preflop plays like stacking off with AJo AQo for 50+bbs that might not be bad against the player pool but that are exploitable if you know them.

Add in card sharing and collusion and you are drawing dead for sure. Some of the egos involved in this argument are lol.

What is the traffic like on the real money Hold'em tables at Ignition? I am trying to get a feel for this site with the play money tables and the action is few and far between there. They don't seem to allow observation of the real money tables due to their whole anonymous play concept. I'm not opposed to that but I would like to observe a real money game once in a while. I'm not going to deposit any money on this site if there is no one playing.