What a condescending rude attitude you have.

Somehow I missed the part of civics class where when the government gets involved one ought not to be concerned.

Kurn is correct. In fact, his backer was named David Gamble.

http://grantland.com/features/the-or...39-25-million/

Irrelevant to the factual merits of my post. Although entirely correct.

Because whether or not the government should be doing something doesn't belong in civics class, at least in the types of civics classes taught in American schools. That belongs in a philosophy class. Or maybe a political science class that focuses on the theories behind government. Not in a class that focuses on how a specific government in question functions.

We can debate (or most likely, agree, since I too think this is a ******ed bill that over-regulates acts that don't need it) about the proper level of government regulation concerning the gaming industry, and specifically, in people betting on behalf of others. But whether or nor they SHOULD do something is not relevant to whether or not they WILL do something, and whether or not that something will have a negative impact on people.

I can run around all day saying "the government shouldn't stop people from importing prescription drugs not yet legal in America but legal in other countries to give to sick people who need those drugs and are fully informed of the risks". Doesn't change the fact that the government does do that, and people can get caught and face jail time for it.

You realize that swapping with friends is a common thing and it isn't because they can't afford to buy in.



If this were to go through what are the chances of the WSOP moving to another state?

In fairness to all of us civics-lesson-deprived droolers, no one in this thread seems to be panicking (for many of the reasons you cited in your complete post).

The bolded part is why it's not at all unreasonable that Gzesh started this thread and that people have something to say. Like you said, this bill is nowhere near being passed. Some people would like to keep it that way, that's all.

I think you're thinking of Greg Raymer (who sold bits on here)

This bill says it was prepared for the Gaming Control Board, which is not "just some guy":

(ON BEHALF OF THE STATE GAMING CONTROL BOARD)

I appreciate your call for action, as the legislative process unfolds. Yes, one would hope that the WSOP might act to stop the poker baby from being thrown out with the sportsbook bathwater. in fact they should be the ones to lead an effort to do so.

I just saw SB40 this morning and do not have first-hand knowledge of its progress to this point, or how it grew from a sportsbook concern to include other gaming areas, but I can make some educated guesses.

You are correct, the issue in the FinCEN Letter to the AGA was sportsbook related, and a concern to FinCEN for a variety of legitimate reasons from a law enforcement perspective. However, throwing tournament poker into the same mix is an extension beyond the "money laundering" model that sportsbetting affords. An honest, but unaware sportsbook manager may think that the increased handle arising from illicit money laundering activity makes his book a hero in terms of revenue. Source of funds is a sticky issue, especially when the business model being abused as a tool is attractive.

In a poker MTT context, the same attributes that attract illicit money-laundering simply are lacking. Placing sportsbets, and funds, into the casino/financial system is an attractive tool because the outcomes can be reliably binary; a hypothetical bet on each of the Patriots and Seahawks ensures a specific placement of funds into a financial system, for a known vig. In contrast, an MTT tournament staking is anything but binary and variance is a huge issue.

I think posting here was a good idea. I've heard the NGCB Chairman specifically refer to posts in forums as an area their agency monitors for insights into the poker industry. I expect that someone in policy/lobbying at Caesars does as well. To be honest, the thread was done as much for their eyes as for players.

It seems like one person is. I confess I somehow applied his "THIS MUST BE STOPPED!!!!!!" message to the rest of the thread and concluded everyone's panicking. PANIC!!!!!!! Whoops.

Agreed. And I even put up some suggestions on how best to do that, at least what I think are the best suggestions. I can tell you that posting in this thread about it, while nice and fun and whatnot, is probably like 46896359th on the scale of best ways to try to make sure this bill is amended.

All it takes is an extra clause that states: "Nothing in this bill shall be interpreted to include people from paying a participant in a licensed and regulated table games or poker event (to include baccarat tournaments and the like) for all or a portion of any profits won from the results of the event". It'd make cash game swapping and staking illegal, but that actually would be impossible to track or punish since it's all off the books at all times.

Yeah, and my post said "State agency" as one of the groups that can presubmit bills for consideration.

It certainly can't hurt. But I think it needed to be made clear that this bill hasn't even been discussed in committee yet and is a long way from becoming the burden that it would become if it is passed, and I felt it wasn't clear from the posts in this thread up until this point. That my posts had just a slight amount of arrogance and condescension is an unfortunate side product of always being right, so if that made it seem like I was the guy in the room being like "EVERYONE SHUT UP! STOP PANICKING! THIS IS NOT A BIG DEAL! DO NOT THINK OF PINK ELEPHANTS!!!!", my bad. But again - it's not like this bill was going to be debated tomorrow. Plenty of time to make sure something is done to tweak the wording of the bill. At this point the bill is a tiny possibly cancerous lump on your back - if it's handled swiftly and adequately, it'll just be removed (the law will be changed to sportsbook-only related endeavors) and life will go on. If left unchecked, then it's a problem.

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/App/NELI.../1188/Overview

and

https://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/...tory.cfm?ID=52

At some point very soon after the first meeting on Febuary 2nd, they will put this bill up for debate and those links will note as such. Then you'll know exactly when the first important hearing/deliberation on this bill will take place.

Yeah, but I was willing to start the thread for free, just to get it noticed.

Your call to action suggestions are good ones.

I also would be willing to donate

www.StopSB40.Vegas

to the cause if someone with weight wants to oppose the bill applying to Nevada's licensed, regulated tournament poker, from a grassroots level.

nearly perfect combination of condescension and cluelessness from flattire there. well-structured as far as worddiarrhea goes tho.

Funny, my previous post briefly had this exact analogy but I erased it because, quite frankly, I don't know how far along the bill is as compared to a precancerous polyp.

But same idea. Find such an abnormality, and someone will inevitably tell you to have it looked at. If they say, "better get that checked out while you can" that's a reasonable and probably correct response. If they say, "OMFG! SEE A DOCTOR NOW OR YOU'LL BE DEAD TOMORROW!!!!!" then yes, that's someone panicking. What people have tended to do in this thread is much more of the former.

Props to you for putting this issue into its correct perspective. And props to Gzesh for bringing it to our attention.

Incidentally, if I do have a suspicious lump on my back, and I do go to a doctor about it, I hope his/her first words are "you people need an oncology lesson."

Half-right. I'd love to hear how you think it's cluelessness though.

I'm good like that.

Agreed on all accounts.

That'd be my favorite doctor of all time. Mostly because I'd be wondering what other "people" he'd be talking to when it's just me and him and he's saying "you people need an oncology lesson!" before launching into a 5 minute lecture on the basics of oncology.

Unrelated note - SB40 each year is different; it's just the 40th bill that the senate will be addressing. I assume it doesn't matter and you don't care, but it's possible having a website like "StopSB40" may get some traffic and attention based on what SB40 was last session (https://www.leg.state.nv.us/Session/...tory.cfm?ID=52 -had to do with clarifying the definition of what a "sentinel event" is for mental health facilities, who have specific provisions for what to do in case of an occurrence of one). That's not exactly poker related.

And I'm sure in 2017 there will be another SB40. So just don't want you getting an e-mail from someone wanting to discuss mental health institutions in Nevada.

Yes I am aware and I have never been a fan of that either. In smaller tourney's I play I see way more problems then benefits as I posted about above.

Rail your friend and be happy for him but it's not healthy for poker to have 3 guys with staking and swapping deals playing with each other at a final table especially when final table deals are the norm at these types of tourney's.

i think staking is bad, but this is just crazy.

I'm sure he would send all the backers a 1099-MISC just like everyone else does and only pay on his 17.5%.

http://www.taxabletalk.com/2007/05/1...ore-the-rules/

NRS 200.575  Stalking: Definitions; penalties.
1.  A person who, without lawful authority, willfully or maliciously engages in a course of conduct that would cause a reasonable person to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, harassed or fearful for the immediate safety of a family or household member, and that actually causes the victim to feel terrorized, frightened, intimidated, harassed or fearful for the immediate safety of a family or household member, commits the crime of stalking. Except where the provisions of subsection 2 or 3 are applicable, a person who commits the crime of stalking:
(a) For the first offense, is guilty of a misdemeanor.

Think of all the "got ripped off" threads that will no longer happen if people stop staking.

gg one drop if it happens.. the main event would take a huge hit too i'd imagine

gg wsop, fields going to be much lower.

This would be terrible for Poker

So much dum regarding SB40. in 2008 i was the FIRST to say large scale staking "teams" were largely money laundering schemes. ****** 2p2r's (No Im not talking to you im talking to the OTHER ******) couldn't see this and embarrassed themselves by saying, "no these are all just great businesses"... looooool. Now, it seems, this has become common knowledge to the feds (and sharps and criminals).

Now i will drop some more knowledge. THIS LAW WILL BECOME THE BEST THING THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED TO POKER!

F the WSOP and F TOURNAMENTS! (ya, i said it!)

Who cares if these abominations shrink by 50%+ Actual working professionals never needed/wanted this crap and still dont.

Real working professionals play for cash. For the most part there's no such thing as a "live tournament professional" we dont need tournaments. I made bank before the poker boom and during, now tons of "recreational" cash is in multi entry tournaments, its out of the grip of an actual working pro, its as if theyre wasting their rec poker cash on lottery tickets.

If the staking cess pool drys up were gonna see a lot of "pros" arent wearing any shorts. F these bitches. These broke ass bitches inflate the size of games on fake cash they have no access to so one rich dude can win money off another rich dude drafting a "fantasy" poker team. ORRRR and ACTUAL team of broke dudes can pool and collude to play against rich dudes. Players with actual ethics, real lone wolves, OG MOTHER****ERS, who wont take a loan/swap like a bitch see the fakes play fish in big games.

DRAIN THE TOURNAMENT CESS POOL! lets all play on our own dime. Whos afraid of the big bad wolf?

LISTEN UP! every real working professional or anyone who aspires to be a working professional nothing better can possibly happen then things going back to the way they were. One man to a hand playing on his own dime. THE RICH FISH DONT GIVE A SHIZZZ! ITS ALL PLAY MONEY TO THEM. Andy Beal was just at Wynn blowing off 100k in a 5-10 game YO! he dont careeeee! A group of bitches on borrowed/pooled money will steal these players from the true working professionals. ya, this has and will always happen to an extent but now its rampant. Its the worst its ever been x10. AND IT GOES TO DONKAMENT POOLS!!!

Rec players notice this stuff and its killing poker, from Laliberte to your local "main event" rec players see the "pros" are swapped and pooled and staked and they feel like theyre being teamed up on. They feel this way because its TRUE!

Drain the cess pool. Ill still be here...will you??