+1

Degens do not practise bankroll management.

I believe it is a mental state, and it is subjective by nature. You need to feel some compulsion towards gambling, maybe that need to experience the swings, the adrenaline rush, that lack of judgment of knowing it´s -EV and still doing it, or being dumb enough to not even know what a -EV game is, to be a degen. So, in my own definition, you can be a winner and a poker degen at the same time. A pro who is not a degen is the responsible guy who always take the rational approach: good BRM, treats poker for what it really is: a boring grind where winning means making as many good decisions and as few bad ones as he can humanly make for his skill level, do not let the swings affect how he plays, work on his game constantly, etc. Only obvious stuff really

I don´t think you can be a no-degen pro at poker and a degen in any other gambling, as the mental flaw is the same. -EV gambling is just irrational, doesn´t make any sense.


Edit: so yes, a winning poker pro who goes to the roulette should be a degen

Someone can make a living playing poker but still end up at baccarat occasionally and degen off because that's just what happens. Not mutually exclusive.

source: myself

What comes on the river

A pro is mostly distinguished by his ability to beat poker over a sustained period of time and by playing a large volume of hands (live or online).


Whether he is degen or not isn't particularly important.

I find this a really interesting question.

If you asked both a "top pro" and a "degen" to complete the problem gambling severity index (link) then they would probably both look like they have a big gambling problem.

Perhaps one reason for this is that becoming a top pro takes so much focus and dedication, that the time commitment kind of makes the pro appear to be a degen to the wider world.

Nonetheless there are some definite differences. Top pros tend to focus on one specific specialty (playing mixed games can be a specialty), and devote almost all of their playing and studying time to that specialty. Whereas a degen will play whatever is available in order to get action. Top pros will tend to gamble for significant stakes only within their specialty, whereas a degen will likely also gamble significantly on either things that they are not an expert in, or things that are -EV for everyone.

In the long-run the top pro is able to win and keep a lot of money, which will more than justify their commitment to poker.

Was this guy a degen? Considering the blackjack activity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_O._Thorp


Maybe anyone, engaging in any activity where your income is partially subjected to the luck factor, is a degen. Then, Warren Buffett is also a degen, entrepreneurs are degens, anyone who puts some % of his retirement funds in stocks etc. And people do not call them degens only because society decided those are respectabe activities, and poker isn´t?

My definition of a degen is someone who is willing to lose money they can’t afford to lose.

The key is not that they ARE losing that money, but that they are willing to.

thank you thank you thank you

stop caring about what society thinks, "society" has programmed you to be sheep and docile and to feel guilty for chasing your dreams instead of conforming, grow a pair of nuts and do what you love and don't apologize for it

Speaking of this. I watch those Dateline type shows a lot and it always amuses me to see when they interview the murderer's respected and professional lawyers making up lies and excuses in defense of an obvious piece of sht. I wonder how those people are able to look at themselves in the mirror without feeling shame. I guess when you make that much money you'll throw your own momma off the bridge for a piece of that pie.

Degen can just be playing anything. Games you are not used to or stakes.

A pro picks wisely and focuses on their skills.

When I play NL mid stakes cash when there is no PLO, I'm degen, because i know for a fact im outskilled but want the rush of gambling. When I'm picking carefully tables at PLO I'm pro.

Unfortunately I swing between both worlds. Guess that makes me neutral.

I dunno. If you work a normal basic job and are getting broke by the end of the month and play your A game for one night, it can get you out of the hole. So I don't fully agree. Depends on your confidence in your game.

I get your point though.

We can think of a different order as well or in other words take ev to the infinite...

If a player is +ev to the infinite then we say they are a pro, or a pro in the long term etc.

Then it removes the idea that a player who makes a wsop top 10 payout and then punts their winnings over the next 5 or 10 years in games they can't win might be pro...

But that said degen is not really the opposite of a +ev player. A rec player might be -ev just like someone spending money on fun with no possible $ return in an ev sense.


Then we would hope there are no degens playing the game or at least be happy their money goes to more responsible people.

It's easier too if we have a conceptual ideal strategy to compare deviations to.

And then I think there can be considerations on the types of variance a player faces and whether or not it's reasonable to consider poker as an income (to pay expenses). So situations where one is a favorite but maybe can't really expect steady income.

Their underpants

Boxers or briefs?

Actually, it's clean or soiled. I've read some stories on 2+2 about players who were so degenerate they just went in their pants because they couldn't pull themselves away from the game in time to make it to the restroom (or didn't even care enough to try).

With the OP's questions now answered, let's discuss this... are there amateur lawyers? And when a professional lawyer does pro bono work, or works on spec, is he/she technically an amateur for the purpose of that case?

underpants is not bad most of them have depts ..

Paging @KingNiche

Good question. I've come across some amateur lawyers that actually do the job better than professionals but would rather just do cases on the side than full time for quality of life reasons. Basically the general rule of thumb is if you make more money as an amateur lawyer than your full time job then you are essentially a professional lawyer.

The two terms are not mutually exclusive. Everyone would agree that the likes of TJ Cloutier or Phil Ivy are Pros, but Cloutier lost everything he made at poker and more playing pit games, and Ivy is known to have lost many millions at pit games and is known as a guy who will bet stacks on anything, be it which fly lands first or which raindrop beats the other to the bottom of the window.

that's really just all about bankroll management

This is much more true in a (now dying) online setting than live. Many, perhaps most, "top pros" in games with actual cards have been generalists, going back to Brunson at least.

When Moby Dick walks into the room, you play what Moby Dick wants to play, not the game you are most skilled at.

They aren't mutually exclusive.

If you make a solid living from poker you are a pro.

If you take some disgusting risks and bets whether it be roulette, sports, slots or poker (and rate to lose), basically can't handle your BRM then you are a degen.

So you can be both or one or none.

I'd argue they are mutually inclusive most of the time. Most pros I know are what a normal person would consider a degen. I guess that is why I know them, they have to keep playing to finance all the punting outside of poker lol.

I agree!!!!! If someone plays $5/10nl, 40 hours a week and has an average of profiting $50,000 a year over a 10 year period, and once a month meets up with friends and puts $200 in slots or the roulette wheel, I would not consider that a degen.