There is no other activity where the expression "those who can't do, teach" is more true than in poker. In a game where being ahead of the pack is mostly up to tediously studying solver outputs, the incentive to share information at mass just isn't there. This, with few exceptions, basically leaves coaching up to people who aren't winning players at any meaningful stakes and have no bottom line to protect.

Still, there are new people getting interested in poker every day and a decently sized market to grab. While there are a couple well-meaning people/retired crushers(Galfond etc) putting out content, there's also plenty of failed pros with dubious morals trying to capitalize on this interest. A new player won't know the difference between a Galfond or a Carrel/Weisman, where the former might seem less flashy but will actually improve their game at a fair prize and the latter lead them down a path of failure. Not really looking to single out those two in particular, but I would make a sizeable wager that neither of them could beat small stakes online and yet they shill their coaching/courses at unwitting newcomers to the game.

I'm sure some might think it's good that there are bad actors scooping up new players and basically selling them horse ****, one less could-be reg. To the extent the poker community is even a thing however, it is sort of sad to see the game being advertised as a get-rich-quick scheme by crypto-esque scam artists. While some have yelled at people like Galfond for years about making the game harder, I think what he is doing is far better for the ecosystem as a whole than the people just trying to make a quick buck. The more people that love this game the better, and I don't think you'll love the game if you start out trying to emulate aforementioned gentlemens play wondering why you're losing your bankroll.

To the point, we have a pretty poor track record regarding calling out scummy behaviour and these people seem to mostly be accepted by the community. Why aren't any bigger names calling them out? Every single pro knows these guys can't do what they're claiming, yet I don't see a single one protecting potential "victims" by simply saying so publicly.

All so-called "GTO Experts" are con-artist coaches.

With one exception:

You said:
...Carrel/Weisman, where the former might seem less flashy but will actually improve their game at a fair prize and the latter lead them down a path of failure. Not really looking to single out those two in particular, but I would make a sizeable wager that neither of them could beat small stakes online and yet they shill their coaching/courses at unwitting newcomers to the game.

I'll make that bet for $100,000 and have this as evidence:

Charlie Carrel Completes $50 - $10,000 Bankroll Challenge
Online Poker News
October 19, 2021

(Every hand was streamed online)

I believe both of the people I mentioned have done bets like this SEEMINGLY successfully, I still don't believe either of them could sit in a 200z pool and make a living today. I am very certain neither of them could beat MS+ which is absolutely what they are claiming. Still poor phrasing from me, I owe you 100k.

LOL every poker coach is a con*. Act like you know WTF you're talking about and charge absurd hourly rates so dopes think you know what you're talking about and voila!, you have a poker coaching business.



*In the interest of full disclosure, I once coached a guy for $$$. But he begged me. I did not solicit it. And I gave him a great deal, compared to other "coaches" rates.

Who cares, it’s good for the poker economy

Is it? Seems to me it pulls money out of the poker economy. Instead of blowing thousands at the table, they're blowing it on coaching. I'd rather they lost that money to me when I was playing for a living instead of lining the pockets of some douche who can't cut it as a poker pro and resorts to coaching to get his $$$..

But if the coaches aren't winning players themselves then the money does go back to the player pool.

This would mean they were delusional and believe their own fairytale, I wouldn’t make this thread if I thought that was the case. It’s like saying Mikki Mase is just a degen who actually thinks he has cracked baccarat. Very generous interpretation.

Even IF the money is going into the pockets of actual pros, this is still scummy and not how it should end up there. I was fortunate to find 2+2 and good content for the time starting out. Had I bought expensive and actively harmful coaching/content I likely wouldn’t have spent 10000 hours playing this game.

It’s not like there are people selling chess books that couldn’t achieve 1600 rating, telling you that theory is stupid actually.

It’s scummy, it makes poker look like a joke and thinking it deters possible regs seem short-sighted to me.

They won't have time to dump it playing since they're spending their time coaching.

Couldn't care less tbh. If you are stupid enough to buy coaching without doing any background checks so deserve to get scammed. Just like in any other business service you use.

Anyone stupid enough to pay Carell or Weisman for coaching probably needs to learn their lesson the hard way anyway.

I constantly go back and fourth between giving Dylan Weissman the benefit of the doubt and him being a complete con-artist. He had some outrageous, completely laughable rates for his coaching products which makes me lean towards the second option.

I can't speak for Weisman but calling Carell a con artist is way way off the mark. The guy has won millions of dollars and completed a streamed six figure bankroll challenge.

An absolute ****ing tinfoil hat wearing psychopath, yes, but a poker coaching con artist? No.

I would be genuinely curious to hear who some of these people are, but the people you have called out so far ain't it.

Dylan used to charge 12k/month. I would say I am somewhat qualified to judge PLO abilities and he would not beat $5/10 on most networks.



It seems he halfed his prices for now though, if someone thinks 6k sounds reasonable.

U Use a credit card and U charge back if U dont start winnin.

U sound smrt.

This 100%. I sometimes watch his content out of sheer fascination at the simple spots he somehow manages to bungle completely. Whichever option is true, the rates paired with how these guys present themselves makes it impossible to understand how this isn't frowned upon. We can think people who pays for this stuff are morons that deserves the lesson they get, but I can't think of any other scenario where this is completely accepted by the community. These people have associations with huge names and are given credibility/platforms for free which is what I'm taking issue with. I think people falling for nigerian prince-scams are pretty stupid, I still wouldn't associate myself with the people sending them.

If these people were as competent and well-meaning as they claim they would stake their students and take a vested interest in their success. They always conveniently seem to be "retired" and now looking to "give back to the community", not exactly an abundance of people crushing the games in todays climate selling courses.

It's true that the way he presents himself doesn't exactly lend him much credibility. I am aware that he won a couple live tournaments years ago, I don't think that qualifies him to teach people how to climb up the ranks of online CG. I barely play NL and you're undoubtably in a better position to gauge his skill level, would you crossbook the guy at 500z? If not, is his course something you would recommend to a friend wanting to get into poker?

A different example is this "ginge poker" guy who suddenly popped up shilling courses, claiming to beat secret live games for millions which is conveniently impossible to verify. He and Charlie seem to work together, bolstering eachother up. He was asked to make a course for a training site and they basically rejected it saying it was complete nonsense.

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...9/index10.html

For starters I think the owners of this forum could some kind of requirement, atleast something (maybe minimum 50nl winning stake of 250k+ hands or something), on who they let post a coaching thread here.

It is a bit ridiculous to have people who can only beat 2nl and 5nl trying to now start coaching for new players.

Seems like you're just jealous of coaches. Doubt you truly care whatsoever about the people getting "scammed" who sign up for coaching and renew their subscriptions

because being a competent player means you are automatically a good coach

He didn't say it should be the only requirement.

Yes there's more to coaching than being a good player but you do need to be competent to have any chance of being a good poker coach.

This "if you don't do enough research you deserve to get scammed" is somehow a pervasive take on two plus two, and its so imbecilic and irritating, and I wish everyone who keeps parroting it would just shut the **** up and go back under the rock from where they crawled.

Yes, people should exercise due diligence when looking forward a coach, service, or whatever, but that doesn't mean we need to ensure that scammers aren't held accountable.

I don't want a ****ing community that is complacent about thieves because we think "the customer deserves it anyway". I want a environment where even the more gullible (or more accurately, vulnerable), are protected.

So **** off with your dumb opinion, it's not helpful, and it enables scammers.

^ Very well put. I wouldn’t have had the faintest idea who was worth listening too if it weren’t for friends telling me starting out. It’s notoriously hard to verify how well someone has done at this game, even for the biggest names in the game.



I saw Carrell announced a new bankroll challenge today and I think that’s commendable. I have no interest in hating on anyone, if he beats these games and is providing value for his students I’m all for it and I hope that is the case. I may not care for his way of presenting himself personally, but he deserves a point for doing what I think anyone claiming to be a coach should be doing, as transparently as possible.

Poker, the game, is built to prey on the gullible, albeit "fairly".

You think coaching poker , which is NOT poker, but a business should be held to a marketplace standard other than buyer beware, JUST because it is tangential to poker, the game ?

Should badly written poker books be banned ? Should "incomplete" advice or comments be cited and fined, if done as part of a business ? What if the field were "real estate" speculation, should real estate advisors be regulated ? You want a poker advisors regulatory scheme, like is done for investment advisors in some jurisdictions ?

I favor buyer beware in the general marketplace of commerce, with available remedies for actual fraud, etc in such commerce.