Cheers, Napsus. Thanks for putting this subject in the public domain. Again.
I really don't understand how Stars can justify the PLO rake levels. To me it seems completely unsustainable, and the precise opposite of what's "good for poker" in the long run.

Lololol@nice things. Defending 'old school' scumbaggery and supporting rake hikes - great!

I hope Dnegs pulls this off and gets more appreciation from the online poker community, would be a win-win.

i hope this happens. Any improvement will be great for the PLO community.

TY Napsus great post.

DNegs-

Thanks for understanding the player's opinion and getting it to the right people. Hopefully they lower the cost of playing PLO.

If it were to happen it was going to happen anyways. Stars has shown a number of PLO representatives the numbers and provided the reasons for why rake is set the way it is. (obviously many disagree with it) but it is what it is. There is nothing DN could possibly bring to the table that hasn't already being discussed before countless times.

It might be lowered, but only due to the numbers/trends dictating that it should (from Pstars' perspective) and not because of DN or the hundreds on here who have asked for it to be lowered. If it does get lowered shortly after DN offers his 2cents then it's nothing more than a PR move for DN. But after looking at the stats that napsus posted I couldn't care who gets the credit for good news.

Well made OP, glad Joe brought it up before, would be cool to see something actually happen. No idea what the % likelyhood is but the small stakes PLO guys could certainly use it.

+1, dont see great posts lately ..

This is a joke, why are PLO people so sacred?

SNG hyperturbo plays have 1.5-1.8times as high rake as PLO on similar low-midstakes. And No easier SNE doesnt compensate for that.

Something tells me to just bend over.

PLO is the new NLHE? All signs point to the PLO games being in a worse situation than NLHE. Its been complained about for years that the rake is too high to grind a roll from micros. Datamines show that is mostly true.

The dirty little secret in plo is that the massive majority of regs are ultra nut peddlers and there aren't actually a ton of 55/45 flips in smaller games.

Yeah, I mean, Mid-High stakes 6 max hypers, have probably less than 1% of regs winning prerb. Might even be less than that. And there has never been even a hint or discussion of a possible rake decrease and numerous threats of raising it. Why is it everyone is ready to go to bat for the decrease in PLO but not for hypers? Much more possible to kill off 6 max hypers with bad rake way before it will happen in PLO.

A PLO player raised an issue directly with Daniel on a podcast about concerns for the game. Another PLO player opened a new thread usign a very well written OP and data provided by other PLO players asking him to follow up what he said he would to that first player.

I don't think if SnG guys tried to get a change in their games PLO guys would suddenly start posting in that thread that it's unfair. wtf is this ****! honestly.

Exactly, a new thread, on top of the numerous other threads that talk about PLO rake. 6 max hyper regs have been complaining about rake for several years to the point now that the game is much more dead than PLO. Any time someone has voiced the concern about hyper rake, it's met with "lol25bbs, go enjoy your no edge game." The fact is there is plenty of edge to be found if the rake wasn't so atrocious. Like Quadz pointed out, it's almost double what you pay in midstakes PLO by comparison. No one is saying that PLO rake isn't bad as well, but I count at least 5 different threads and numerous posts where PLO rake has been actively discussed. The arguments being made in this thread have been made several times before. If you're going to pitch for lower rake, then pitch for lower rake in total because there are still games out there that have worse rake than PLO. It is quite possible that 6 max hypers are already dead and nothing will bring them back except a rake decrease, especially if they make a drastic change to VIP rewards next year.

And obviously this.

Everyone knows how these things work. If they, for example, halved the plo rake then they'd be down a massive chunk of profit. Likely several % of net. They'd have to recoup this somewhere.

You'd need to fit where they recoup into your solution as well if you want more chance of this happening.

I don't disagree with you about hypers and about the tards who want to take shots re shortstack etc.

Everyone's pushing their own agenda which is natural. However in this specific scenario, a high profile Stars rep has agreed to bring up an issue internally. I'm sure most people expect nothing to come of it, however one small win in the grand scheme of things can be followed by another.

People jumping into a thread and essentially saying FU PLO this shouldn't be followed up, what about my game? is utter bull****. you can swap out the word PLO for hyper, HUSNG, MTT or whatever you want.

The reality is I'm jumping on SS PLO tables and finding guys who were playing PLO1K or 2K 24 months ago who've now resorted to grinding SNE at smaller stakes as there is very little action now. Noone's moving up. The fact that there are other games in a similar state of affairs is depressing but the reality is Stars are more likely to look at games on an individual basis than make grand sweeping rake decreases.

Frankly, the day a site does away with rake entirely and simply rapes us at cashout time can't come soon enough and would probably benefit everyone.

[QUOTE=JohnCleese;46807738]Everyone knows how these things work. If they, for example, halved the plo rake then they'd be down a massive chunk of profit. Likely several % of net. They'd have to recoup this somewhere.

You'd need to fit where they recoup into your solution as well if you want more chance of this happening.[/QUOTE

What is going to happen without a rake decrease is even more extreme bumhunting / less games running. If you look at the lobby now compared to even 1-2 years ago there are almost no mid stakes games running besides 2/5 zoom. THis game is still beatable yet, but as the Pro pool is becomming more and more solid and players are only making small postflop mistakes the only way to win is to have many total Noobs, or lower the rake. If pros cannot win, 90% of the zoom pool dies.

Stars may have to take a short term paycut , to keep a long term income stream coming in.

Stars talks about their opperation costs, but they are never compared to a Brick and Morter casino. I can go play PLO at the Aria and pay $12-14 dollars an hour rake while being provided a real dealer, floor staff, cards, a table, and paying taxes to Nevada. I will always choose to play online over live for the speed of the games, but as a professional at a certain point online poker will be unprofitable.

Stars has been an absolute cash cow for many years and now that they are having to pay taxes and licencing fees they think the players will continue to play while winrates are cut more and more! The online poker world in 5 years will be really interesting to see where it goes, but without a serious change to the rake structure the games all online game will be unbeatable up to the highest stakes where rake isn't a factor as long as 1 Recreational player sits. Then and only then will a game run

Daniel-

Thanks for your attention and any potential help you can offer in the matter.

Napsus-

Great summary, and thanks for putting all that together in a clear and comprehensive post.

if you dont like it dont play. Some people do and your whining wont raise your winrate,

+1. Credit to Joey Ingram for bringing it up with Daniel. Also great to see Daniel jumping in as first poster taking action on his comments on that podcast. I think both him and PokerStars will se reason on this subject, and want to listen to the community but in the end the hard numbers presented.

Pretty much this. The difference is quite clear when you benchmark it vs NLHE. And as Daniel and most of us realize this huge difference in effective rake in bb/100 in two big bet game does not make much sense, and is neither fair or logical.

If this works and there is some problems with SNGs, this should be inspiration, both on how to write but also present the OP and the subject. Noone stops the sng people from spending your negative energy in this thread to something constructive like presenting your case with SNGs on 2p2.

It neither bring sympathy or reflect good on your sub sng community if you bitch in this thread instead of actually seeing that other games (PLO) have problems that people here try to bring up with PokerStars.

top guy

pretty much this tho

vote with ur feet

only thing amaya understand is $$$$$, if ppl stopped playing there and moved to more competitive sites esp small stakes like this where ppl will still find enough tables of PLO 4,10,25 etc why would you carry on at starts? SNE micro grind?!?

Is that[raking the sng hypers so high] because the playing for fun people like a fast game[no patience] and drain there deposit very fast, and they give up, so ps looses money?[profit]
Not trolling, but it makes sense from a business point of view.
And is plo not a slower game[less hands a hour] then nlhe?.
and does the fact that plo has higher pots make up for that?.
I am asking this because i don't play on-line[no patience and get bored fast]. But i am a retired business man that made my money on percentages[buying-selling everything where i could made a buck on] so i kind of see where these decisions come from.
So where does the conviction come from that the plo will attract more players that will make up the loss in rake if they lower it?, or takes it players away from other games?.

I know that amaya are all about making money and the old owners where very much better for the players, but hey are much players not also all about the money?.
So i was just wondering if the rake on plo is in compensation with nlhe money wise, seeing the difference between the games?.

And good luck with lowering the rake, i hope you all get it ,

Nice thread!

nice freeroll for dnegs. he either says he tried his best but they decided to keep the inceases or they actually reduce them and he pretends he has an actual say in anything going on at stars