What details did he out? Simply asserting vpCEO isn't debit free doesn't sound very detailed to me.

I agree it is a bad move they are moving to a proven site that had cheating by upper management and there's no proof other than people saying it has changed owners and management. No one has named the auditing firm, names of the law firm overlooking operations. We know the KGC doesn't do anything and not one person had charges filed or was sued by the company. It still seems they are protecting crooks.

I am wondering if all of the UB haters treat all companies that have scandals the same way? Might want to Google corporate scandals and make sure you aren't using any of those companies services that have scandals resulting in billions of dollars of fraud and sometimes loss of life. If you get this worked up about 20 million dollars that didn't directly effect you in any way I'd hate to see how they react to some other corporate scandals.

First it could easily be 100 million actually stolen, which is kinda the point. And while you are technically correct that the majority of posters here were unaffected, there are several posting ITT who were directly affected, and many more posting in the other threads. Many of these people were never refunded anything.... You are pretty out of line to not expect them to be a little "worked up" over this... Then again it's also pretty weird to hate on the community for sympathizing and empathizing with said affected players..


Furthermore, unlike in most other industries, 2+2 has repeatedly proven that it is capable of having a real effect on these companies and their bottom line. It makes sense to be vocal here, when it quite obviously very effective.

Agree.

His work is terrible, its no surprise people like Fleyshman and Robl love it. The author of the linked article sums it up best:

"rich idiots become easy prey, and you obtain a free license to poorly painted olives with arms and legs bein’ all silly around a badly painted martini glass—and get paid thousands of dollars for doing it."

There were many questions regarding auditors, the UB/AP past, etc. which are up to them to deal with. I'm not here on 2+2 or anywhere in the media trying to sway people to think that pre-2008 was handled correctly or wasn't an atrocious act towards society. As you saw in my Twitter postings that someone posted, I publicly hated what happened in the past. But at the same time I made a strategic business decision to join a network that's the 8th largest in my industry and who's vision for my brand doing international advertising & sponsorships is supported. I will look at the articles & things you've mentioned for post 2008 but taking out the fact of me being an emotional poker player like yourselves that hated the past I have a businessman mentality of thinking why on earth would they cheat in the future if they're doing 100's of millions in revenue based on the numbers I see on Pokerscout. So if nothing poker related has happened for a few years and they've got over 10,000 players online most of the time which adds up to a TON of rake,,, (19,884 at time of posting) then it would seem like cheating would be a useless/irrelevant business decision since the scrutiny of every hand is so intense and they've gotta be grossing millions upon millions of dollars. Obviously I'm not trying to justify stealing in the past, which is what the crime should have been for the cheaters is something along the lines of Grand Theft because that's what it was, STEALING but I have been having open discussions with you guys and from a rational point it would seem that the future is pretty locked up for them being an ultra successful company regardless of what we all feel about the past. No one on this forum would be happy if they handed out another 20 million dollars in payouts to victims today,,, they're would still be countless threads. So for myself as a business owner who's invested alot of money to get an opportunity to join such a large platform is exciting.

Sorry to many of the people that I couldn't answer 1 by 1, I answer FatalError and NoahSD often because they're questions are thought out and written with a purpose.

There were a few postings about the artist Michael Godard and our logo,,, again, I can't please everyone but he is considered the best selling artist in America with 10's of millions in sales annually so as a business owner I'm going to choose to go with making the masses happy. I will not be able to have the 2+2 community deposit on my site due to their valid hatred of the past but my goal has always been to market to the masses and it's been working based on the numbers & growth. Michael Godard is a close friend and was the charity beneficiary of our launch party for the Sharon Osborne Colon Cancer foundation that supports his daughter that past away's charity organization. Love or hate the logo, people talk about it and remember it which is a part of branding.

As far as Mason's quick post. As I mentioned, you'll all be able to meet me during WSOP or many events around the globe and you won't find a single soul that I owe money too in the poker world since playing 25-50 at the Bellagio when I was 21. There are dozens of poker players that owe me the mid 6 figures but I don't have a problem with any of them. That's what I was saying, I personally don't have any debts in the poker community after nearly a decade nor have I ever borrowed since I was always the "business amateur" amongst the high stakes circles.
Victory did have minor debts that I didn't pay out of the 442k I loaned recently. Mason's company 2+2 did receive approx. 40k but the last 8k or so wasn't since there were some network problems and I spent over 15k on equipment/employees for a video side project that was meant for 2+2 but Mason didn't like it so we moved on. I made it clear that regardless what happened with the network issues we would pay the remaining 8k and I emailed Mat Sklansky a few hours before Mason posted that I'd like to clear that up so that we could move forward. The owners of 2+2 truly respect their community so they said they would have too pass on Victory marketing due to the Cereus network feelings which I respect and hope that one day we can work again in the future but realize that many members of the community will always be rightfully upset.

Again, I'd like to apologize for the fact that I can't realistically respond to 100's of postings even though there's valid questions/comments/concerns and I have no authority to have Cereus executives post either (not that you'd believe them) so my only goal to be active in the community is to give my business perspective and convey feelings/questions/comments back to Cereus when possible but I don't have Sebok's role as a brand ambassador or have knowledge like many other people that research the past so intensely. I can only be open about how I think & feel, control my poker skin and trust our millions of dollars of investments/player funds/etc. are safe on their platform,,, which I obviously do.

Thank you for all your postings and I wish you continued success in poker and in life.

why do you think they call it a skin?

Ron Popeil is proud of your post. I'm not asking you a lot of questions because you don't seem to know anything. You speak of auditors and what is going on at the network now, but if you performed any due diligence it isn't showing up in your posts. Pushing traffic numbers and then extrapolating revenues suggest you haven't even done a basic financial review. There are financials available for UB for the year it was public and Pro Forma numbers for the year previous. Also, PartyGaming can be instructive.

Getting information about Cereus from you would be getting it from a conflicted source at best and an outright marketeer at worst. It is clear you are here to justify your deal, we get it. Money does that to people.

This completely misses the point. People would be satisfied if the company provided plausible information about the true extent of the cheating and the payouts. If that resulted in 20M additional paid out, fine. If the information was audited and accepted by a real firm giving a solid basis to believe what has been paid out is adequate, that is fine also. Nobody wants anything more than the truth.

LOL @ the logic in this paragraph.

tl;dr It looks like they're making lots of $$$ based on network traffic so therefore they cannot be cheating. After saying I did my due diligence on UB I have no clue what has happened post 2008 but I will try to get up to speed on those. Also the traffic that UB has provides me a great business opportunity so I can make $$$.

I cant believe you just stated that there can't be any cheating because they're raking in so much money. This is what everyone in poker believed to be true before the UB scandal(s), you are now joining the company which proved this very line of logical thought to be completely untrue.

I like that you're posting here. However, you should not be allowed to continue to do so if you are unwilling to address the following simple question:

Its the poker world and we are poker players. Is it really that hard to wrap your head around??

I was a high stakes sng and mtt player during the scandal. Didn't get a ****in dime from them because they assured me the scandal had nothing to do with mtts and sngs which is companyspeak for "**** you show me proof" (but they wont let me have my HH's so how can I prove anything?)

There is a good chance I lost nothing, but there is a better chance that some of my buy ins had zero chance of winning due to nefarious means used by UB.

Regardless, I am sure that I wasn't scammed nearly as bad as some of the high stakes cash players, but I am sure i WAS scammed and even if I wasn't (or for any others itt who weren't taken by UB) I was still hurt by the scandal JUST BY BEING A POKER PLAYER.

So we have a right to speak out, whether we lost money to the scandal or not, until we finally bury that stinking pile of **** that is an eyesore to the whole community.

EDIT I boycotted Mcdonalds after hearing about the monopoly scam.l They wont get dime one off of me when they run that dodgy promotion ever again.

Regarding the hit that Victory's sponsored pros will take to their image/credibility/whatever you want to call it, you would hope that most people can tell the difference between someone who joined UB when they knew about the cheating scandals (or almost as bad, didn't care enough to find out) and someone in this situation who (depending on the terms of their contract) might have it thrust upon them with nothing they can do about it.

All the same, there is going to be a certain amount of damage to reputation by association. This is simply part of the price of taking up a sponsorship. You never know if the company you're representing might be taken over by/sold to/otherwise associated with scumbags. Nothing comes for free.

bonified, vpceo said earlier in the thread that if any want to leave as a result of joining Cereus that he will let them.

Victimy Poker

Within the last 6-months, UB defrauded their customers of ~30K by their Keno game which was "certified" legit by a bull**** company.

Did those customers ever get their 30K back?

The problem with UB is not their past it's the present. There's no transparency to anything they do. No real audit. Tons of incompetence. Oh well, most of the market doesn't even know about it, they still make money, so who really cares.

And I love how you avoided the simple question I asked if you'd still work with UB/AP if it were revealed that people involved in the cheating were still involved or owned part of UB/AP today.

Fair enough, sorry I missed that. Will be interesting to see what happens in that case.

do we have a date for when this is going to happen?

what are the NAMES of the "auditors upon auditors" you base all your trust in, and why do you keep ignoring this question?

This doesn't even scratch the surface of what's coming. Serial entrepreneur who's primary specialty is marketing gets in financial trouble, again (apparently never bothered to read a P/L statement). With limited options, he is forced to approach his shareholders who also happen to be his main marketing strategy. Fifteen pros, all working off the same talking points, genius. How did it come about?

Dan to Player/Investors: ""Life is a **** sandwich folks and these are the choices. I can get you your money back if you agree to a deal with Cereus. You don't have to wear the patch and if you want to bail on your contract, fine. But, you forfeit your investment. I put it to a vote we all hold hands and leap off the bridge together."

INT. OFFICE - Next Day

Hilt: "So let me understand. We get 15 pros and the bunny, all with renegotiated contracts, a new logo to slowly replace the tainted UB/AP brands and you, shilling like crazy on the poker forums. We payout the investment with Cereus shares or depreciated cashouts. Is that it?"

Dan: "Right, did you mention the bunny?"

Scott: "I'll have to personally interview her."

Garin (leaning in through the door): "You guys want to shoot some hoops?"

Everyone: "We're busy!"

Hilt: "Paul, set it up. Better pump the budget at TBT. If we're gonna do it, lets do it right. CP, Bluff, PN, WCP everyone. Get them to the party with the pros and the models. Hey I got an idea, invite that 2+2 guy who busted our chops on Keno, whats his name? Moses or something?"

Dan: "Got it. One thing, I need a little advance..."

I really can not wait to hear the explanation for this, Checking this thread often for VPCEO's response!

...

same happened 2 me at AP

gstar is awesome
now he says he dont know contact UB

+1000 to you guys dont waste your time

vpCEO is Captain of a sinking ship and is making a desperation move to save/keep his Company afloat even if UB saves Victory Poker their track record is to rape every skin they ever had once the skin brings the traffic in the skin gets kicked to the curb like an old hoe that lost her looks

VpCeo needs to be temporarily banned until he agrees to answer a few reasonable questions from NoahSD and ElevenGrover. This web of lies has gone on for too long and is hurting the poker community. We should not allow him to take over what are otherwise productive conversations about the shady business practices of UB/AP.

Do you know how many skins AP/UB has had and what happened to them?

I know of vegaspoker724 and bigchippoker that were both skins of AP (current cereus ownership) Eventually all the players were swallowed up by AP and the skins closed. Not sure how the financials went for the skin 'owners' but I can guess. I hope the Victory CEO has done some research into those skins.

Everyone has directly suffered from the negative stigma on online poker now, it's not a stretch to say all of our winrates have been affected

VPCEO, you were aware of the work Haley, Mookman, ElevenGrover etc have done looking into the scandal and yet you just take the word of Cereus management that everything is currently 'above board'? Even though you must know that plenty of issues remain unresolved?
Why didn't you contact Haley/Mookman/Eleven BEFORE you entered into this agreement to see what they could tell you about current operations?
Apart from the Cereus management, who are unable/unwilling to address these issues, these 2+2ers are the most informed people on the subject.
If I was thinking of joining forces with such a potentially damaging partner, this is one of the first things I would have done.
If you had done so, you would have realised they were not 'above board' and furthermore that they are a very poorly run operation.
You are being made aware of this now in no uncertain terms so I really hope we don't hear from you in a couple of years;
'Maybe I was naive but I really thought......blah blah blah'.

Do it now. Contact these 2+2ers by PM, find out what's really going on and if you can get out of this deal before it happens, do it.