That's what she said

I dunno. To me he seems like exactly who I'd expect to be running a shady private vault shop in Vegas.

Yeah seems like this is a good service for people who intend on breaking the law and want to hide their manies.

Surprisingly enough other people besides poker players often have large amounts of cash and do not have to resort to such clandestine iris scan no identity places.

What should have happened is one day they just left town with everyone's money. Since they don't know who anyone is how are you even going to prove what you had in your box if they just stole it all.

If your primary goal is to hide your money from the government this might make some sort of sense. If your primary goal is to keep your money safe, not so much.

"Sorry Mr. X our Iris Scanner is not recognizing you so you must not be a customer of ours. Have a nice day!"

All shady reasons, just as he implied.

I get people want to hide their money for shady reasons.

What I don't get is why anyone would think such a place was a safe place to keep their money.

Some ppl are just paranoid. Like I said in a post that was deleted, this service is going to be demanded by both sides (ppl using it for legal means and non). Just b/c the guy ran a joke of an operation doesn't mean its something to dismiss.

Stink Johnson-
"Hey yous low-limit NVG scumbags. This here is a thread for all my high-limit poker players, drug dealers, and rich people trying to hide money from their wives, business partners, and the IRS. 24/7 Vault got robbed and I am very sad about this. It is such a sad day for 10 or 20 people. I know I am putting this in the one of the most popular parts 2+2, but only the 50 or so people who read this and might have boxes there should reply. This is common sense. None of yous living with Mama need comment. Did I mention I am Stinky Johnson and it is a really sad day because 20 rich people lost some money?"

I saw a program on TV about a similar robbery in The Pierre Hotel. The dirty money factor was one of the main reasons they did the job. They figured people who couldn't tell the police about their valuables would bring less heat. There would be a fence who was willing to take stolen items even if he had friends looking for these guys -- as long as the % to him was high enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre_Hotel_Robbery

Apple Dumpling Gang.

I can't believe any sane person would put any serious amount of money in there, in the care of that old man.

Sometimes I am amazed how dumb some poker players are... it is like every few months someone tops the last group.

To the people in this thread who admitted to using this service... I would not be telling people about it. The whole thing is insane. I think I will go dump in a bunch of drugs in a safe and then report it to the police. (although he said no narcotics but he doesn't see what you put in there so what...)

Just the more I see about this place and this guy, I am dumbfounded. How does anyone who thinks putting a money in a place like this have money to begin with?

What were the charges to have a safety deposit box in this place?

Not just high stakes poker players use these boxes there is also a large number of big time sports bettors who also use them. This is not the first private vault in Las Vegas that was robbed. There was on Maryland Parkway years ago that not only was used by individuals but also by Metro to keep drug evidence. That one was an inside job. You are taking big risks using these vaults. It's a real quandary as to where to keep large sums of money. If you pay taxes on your winnings you can use a bank. I know someone who was betting Pro Football who routinely went to Wells Fargo to withdraw $40-$60 thousand each Friday. Cashed tickets on Monday redeposited the money and went through the same procedure the whole football season. It's inconvenient but you know you money is safe. You can also use the bank safe deposit box but they frown on people keeping money in there. Bellagio did provide safe deposit boxes for poker players.
Now that the 24/7 Private Vaults has gotten this publicity you would have to think that the Feds along with local enforcement officials will be watching the parking lot and taking pictures of plates. They can't prove what you put in there and take out but do you really want to be scrutinized. They can find out where you live, what you own, where you go. Look into your lifestyle and compare it to your tax return. Does it sound like paranoia. Go ask some old time poker players about safe deposit boxes being seized at Binion's.

What ? That someone might "WANT" to do it is considered enough of a "good reason". There is this concept of exercising one's right to privacy.

Failing to declare or Concealing cash is illegal if you are crossing the US border and the amount is > $10,000. That seems to be the only "concealing cash specific" law I can think of. Generally, the nature of an asset does not affect the legality or not of concealing its possession or location.

Any others that are "cash specific" ?

(Probability of being burglarized) x (the amount of value in your box) + (a fee which was nominal by comparison) ?

how can you be bonded and insured when you don't have a clue how much coverage you need. certainly a million dollars is not enough... even ten million might be skimpy when you consider multiple clients. and then how would you possibly log a claim.

I think the prices started at $325 a year for a small box.

Some info for those of you playing fast and loose with the facts. The row of safes that you see in the picture is INSIDE a double vault in the VIP section. The standard boxes in the regular section with are also inside a vault look identical to safe deposit boxes inside a bank. Payments are made in cash and there are absolutely no records. There is a method of setting up a beneficiary. That person will need both a key and secret password that you give them.

As far as being stupid to use this service. Well in hindsight I can't argue that in my own case. But it's easy to see that in hindsight. Going in the business had a strong 20 year track record. They have invested in some of the top technology for security and outline security procedures that should have been adequate. Things such as having 2 people on staff at all time in separate locations monitoring. If that procedure had been followed, we wouldn't be having this discussion today.

There are all sorts of reasons why a client would use such a service. Some legitimate, some not. This is Vegas and Vegas is a unique location. There are many why a person could need access to his/her money at a moments notice. Front and for most professional or even high stakes non-professional gambler. I play blackjack for a living. A blackjack player playing mid/high stakes experiences tremendous variance. I am not a poker player, but have heard our variance is much greater than what you poker players experience. At any rate having access on weekends is a big deal, especially long holiday weekends. Many players playing high stakes use the crowds of such times as cover for their play. If you have a bad run early on a Saturday of a 3 day weekend it can sideline you for 3 full days of prime playing time.

As for issues with banks: I use a bank. Several actually. I have a safe deposit box at one and accounts exclusively for my bankroll at 2 others. Problem with accessing the box is of course business hours. Problems with constantly moving large amounts of money around, CTR for one. Now I am not opposed to filling out CTR because I am hiding nothing. I declare I am a professional gambler for tax purposes, and pay my taxes. Having some CTR's is very easily explained. The issue is time involved. I need to move 15, 20 grand a number of times a week, or carry it around with me. And after you experience a robbery, which I have in the last year, that option becomes less attractive. So, yes I did keep a small portion of my bankroll at with this company which guaranteed me access to my funds 24/7.

I network with several other professional blackjack players based here in vegas and several others did likewise and like myself all are 'rethinking' our decision and exploring other options. I also know a professional player not based in Vegas who used this service rather than travel with his funds. After 9/11, packing 50 grand isn't as easy or convenient as it used to be. If you don't want to opt for a private screening room and be interigated as to why you have 50 grand or don't want to pull out 50 grand and hold it above your head for all the world to see, leaving it in Vegas is (was) an option. Furthermore, I know of a professional video poker player who used this service. In case you are not familiar with professional video poker play, the variance is 10 times more extreme than even blackjack. You must play to a strong six figure bankroll and have access to a good portion of it very quickly because the swings are great. When they find a progressive situation where the jackpot has rolled over enough to make it a plus EV situation, they can't afford to run out of money for a couple days waiting to replenish their bankroll. As soon as someone hits the progressive royal flush the plus EV is gone.

Lastly I know of a person who speculates in both auto sales and real estate on weekends, buying up both for cash at very short notice. This type of business, completely legal also needs access to large amounts of cash in a short period of time. As I said, this is Vegas and there are all kind of unique opportunities.

The stuff in the vaults is not insured/bonded, but the place is. Watch the video interview. It sounds like a labeling tootsie rolls "fat free" marketing ploy. He says they can can't the box stuff because they dont know whats in them. There are several types of bonds. Some businesses have to be bonded to operate, it is the same as a business license. Bonded means you will do the job you say you will do satisfactorily. If anything happens, thats a different story.

Bonded & Insured.

So it is all good???

UPDATE: Didn't take long to call this one. Private Vaults has now announced it is closing for good.

1. At a minimum anybody operating a private vault service ought to be able to show you a security audit from a reputable security auditing firm that says the security in the vault measures up to American Bankers Association or UL or whoever writes the standards for such things. Nobody would pass such an audit without offsite monitoring.

2. It is not at all farfetched that some law enforcement or tax agency would photograph license plates, or record the cell phone numbers of vault users who visit the place while their cell phones are on. Cameras are tiny, and the Man knows where you go with your cell phone.

3. And you have to trust them. Look at their web site. Why is the owner of the place shown smiling and holding up a bunch of ... SUCKERS!

That is such a ridiculously terrible argument. You seem to have made two points:

1) If someone wants to do something, that makes it a good idea. This is blatantly empirically false.

2) If you have the right to do something, that makes it a good idea. This might be even dumber.

The fact that you just came out and said these things directly is really remarkable. Most people tend to say these arguments in a disguised way, and they typically don't recognize that their argument boils down to one of the above.

Yes, of course. Here's one example: http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/...148857,00.html .

Nice.

He explains this in the video. He explains what it means to be bonded and insured, and I don't really understand that, but he says quite explicitly that your assets are not covered because he doesn't know what they are or who you are.

Ok...I was not gonna jump on the "anyone who had a ton of cash there is an idiot" bandwagon, but this is just ridiculous (IF true).

If that was it in terms of yearly cost, wouldn't you understand that with such low capital, PV would definitely have to play cheap on security. I mean there's no way that at these prices they could afford top of the line security in every respect, which is the minimum (yes, I knwo it's the maximum too) acceptable for this kind of operation.

You should do more research about this. There are banks and casinos that will let you have access to your money quickly at any time; they do it legally, and they're legally obligated to keep your money safe/compensate you if they don't. I dunno about specific Vegas options, but there are definitely boutique services that handle this type of stuff.

In other words, this service was designed to provide privacy AND convenience, with a focus on privacy. The extreme privacy that they provided comes with extreme risks. There are businesses that provide the convenience without the privacy and its associated risk.

jk noah.



Thanks for the info, Kewl. Never knew anything about this kind of establishment.

a possibly twisted moral thought: if this was an inside job, would it be easier on the conscience if they only stole the boxes that hadn't been accessed for a long time, and the owners presumed dead without any beneficiaries? Seems like that would be the easiest route (for the insider) to take in order to avoid any backlash from the more sinister individuals that are serviced there. Plus, they stole from someone (heirs) who didn't know they had something in the first place.