Finally made it through this thread. To the guy asking about the original screenshots posted by brainwash: There were 5 screenshots posted, the names of the pictures were:

buck.JPG
kid.JPG
mama.JPG
wackme123.JPG
gx2crsh9-1320187f292ef0dea49632d429b62131.jpg

I saved them all and have them unedited if anyone needs them, pm me

I have contacted Chuck Barnett and I asked him to help. Gave him a link to the UB sticky and a link to CornellFiji retraction. He said it was the first he was asked to help and will look into it. Hopefully something helps.

FWIW, back in the fall, Russ did get a little hot and bothered when I called him a former UB owner in a post on P5s. brsavage should remember that since, IIRC, the request for me to remove it came through him. But he didn't threaten me, he just asked me to remove it.

A concerned friend brought me to this thread, and I must say it is amazing. Mindblowing. I am not familiar with all the names here, so please forgive me. First time poster and all.

This is probably not the right spot, but since this seems to be where the most knowledge is, i figured what the heck.

The fact that this has gone on at TWO sites makes me really doubt everyone lately. I am a low limit scrub, so its not the money for me, but the cheating aspect, and well it is the interwebs....

I was told that the same thing is happening at Full Tilt. That a well known player with the initials "TL" was refunded $80k for cheating that occurred. I have heard of others for lesser amounts in the 10-20k range. Can anyone confirm this?

Please don't waste space flaming me. If I am wrong, I apologize, put me on ban, delete my post. I just don't think we should put any site on a pedestal, and if something else is going down in the poker community, the sooner the sleuths get on it, the better.

i wouldnt be shocked at all.

just cos the money was returned doesnt mean it was cheated out of the player from the site, it could have been other players colluding or operation of bots

Fair enough. Is there any site that lists these known bots or colludesr? Obv I never got a refund from cheating. Do they tell you why you are getting the refund, and who cheated you?

Exactly.

There are several well-known and proven cases of FTP confiscating money from players that cheat (collusion, bots, etc.) and redistributing it to the affected players.

There has been no evidence, nor credible accusations, of superusers at FTP.



No, FTP plays it very close to the vest. They try to give out as little information as possible so as not to give away how they were able to catch the cheaters.

If you want more information, start a thread in the Internet Gambling forum. This thread is for the UB superuser issue.

I can't remember half the details of this, but if anyone knows the name of the cheating son you might be able to call up the HR department and pretend to be an employer asking about employment history.

Usually you can't get any more information other than start date and end date, but thats all you want right now right?

Chances are the HR dept hasn't been notified to lie if this information is requested, so should be fruitful.

This is assuming this business is ran internally like any other.

so it seems nothing will happen as always. rewind the world 20 yrs, no internet. say we're playing in a casino and cheating is discovered at poker. cheathing was treated differently than a gambler reaching over and stealing chips from the blackjack dealers rack. Stealing chips from dealer in plain sight of others resulted in casino security guard holding the player until the LV police were called. Police would come and take away the theif. It is chalked up to "that crazy guy was arrested." For the poker cheat, casino probably has a tough guy unit with shady appearance and sunglasses. The cheater is brought to a dark room down a dark hallway. Some guy in a cheesy double breasted suit and floral tie comes in and slaps cheater around. Big Hulk Hogan right hand guy breaks a few fingers. Floral tie guy tells cheater he is never to play poker in the casino again or even lets him play but warns him not to mark cards or collude or whatever. This is because the thief and cheater gets treated differently for specific reasons. Theif does not bring doubt to integrity of game and trust of casino. Theif's own trust is hurt and casino is good guy and victim. The cheater, however, does crush integrity of game and raise doubts about fairness of game. If casino knows but does not act, casino becomes unwitting accomplice. It cannot afford this so it must stop the cheating but quietly out of sight of others.

In our situation now, what is the problem? There is many but the FUNDAMENTAL ones are:
1) Cheating occurred but UB is attempting to treat is as a theft. (See above and analyze what I mean).
2) Cheating was made publicly known. Casino (UB) even publicly stated it was not just a random player but casino itself was involved. And yet, players continue to walk in the door and give it business.
3) If #2, then ... it is strange that Casino is still the only one "investigating" the theft as I explained in theft situation,law enforcement is called always. But,
4) If Casino should not be operating, they cannot call law enforcement.

So, we're in a vicious cycle where there is no way out. Therefore, nothing can and will happen unless the players themselves do something about it. In most criminal scandals involving powerful few vs many, public can turn to media (deep throat and Watergate and countless others I won't waste time listing here) to leak without personal repurcussions. After media, they can turn to law enforcement. Cut a deal for reduced sentence or pardon.

In online poker and poker industry, we have no media - just pawns who are structurally no different than online site paid employees. Pokerroads is slightly admirable for being spunkier but not even close to what we need. Poker players cannot go to law enforcement because even if they could, they won't. Degenrate players are shady people to begin with and don't want to draw attention to themselves. Recreational players probably have good standing clean reputations in their fields and don't want to reveal they play poker or get lots of attention. Pro players don't want industry villifying him or her so they are shy to stick neck out too far lest it be chopped off.

Only solution I can see if to do things the old fashioned way. Cheater is not who should be threatening the cheated folks. Think about how ludcrous this situation has become. We need to get the victims to unite under some structure and go on the offensive. Let PAA be the lobbying arm of the online poker sites. Forget the money raising for Nat or whatever. Forget those pointless actions that lead to no discernable, tanible goal. Raise that money to establish a PLAYERS UNION or PLAYERS ORG of some sort. Give this union some charter with distinct roles. Player's Bill of Rights. Operators Acceptable Behaviors (for customer service, responding to problems, disclosing breaches, etc etc), and so on.

All sites will have cheaters. Poker industry had cheating through its history what makes internet poker so unique? Internet put poker out of arms of law, made people anonymous, gave easy software tools to cheat and unlevel the playing field, and thrust poker into the back alley darkness. We will never change that. But, we can make it safer overall by applying pressure on the casinos.

Even if you believe in all of above, the FIRST STEP MUST BE TO STOP F**KING PATRONIZING UB AND AP. STOP PLAYING THERE. Sad to say no other way to do this than to badger and annoy people who still play there and get thm to stop.

Otherwise, even after all these postings lead to damning evidence against a few individuals, we won't ave accomplished anything other than those people geting scornful looks when they go into a poker room. Maybe get some anonymous tauntings online. But, life goes on for them and us and this is all just tooth and nails voyeuristic fun.

correct me if im wrong, all this information if overwhelming. so if -fred- was an account people would get money from by calling someone up at UB to get their account funded, and -fred- funded a superuser account(if i recall correctly) then someone using the superuser account directly contacted someone for funds?


**edit** tryed to quote part where barryg explained -fred- account but didnt work

I have all the respect in the world for Barry Greenstein, but it sounds as if Russ succeeded in pulling the wool over Barry’s eyes in the so-called “interview”.

• Russ wouldn’t address the ownership issue. Rather than saying this will help people understand Russ’s and UB’s behavior, Barry seems to let Russ off the hook by saying it’s understandable that people don’t want to talk about ownership of internet companies, especially poker sites.

• Barry says Russ seemed unfamiliar with some of the key players in this story. This flies in the face of what’s been uncovered in this forum.

• Russ really wanted to talk but his lawyer wouldn’t let him (right!). Yes, no one can force him to talk, but how many times have I heard people use their lawyer as an excuse for not answering hard questions. If he hasn’t done anything wrong, it’s hard to imagine why he wouldn’t quickly and publicly address all of the allegations being made against him.

• Russ says there’s an investigation going on that will answer everything in two or three months. This is the one I’m most curious about. Who’s doing the investigating? If it’s UB, why wouldn’t they make a public statement to this effect? Hopefully the investigation that’s taking place is a criminal investigation.

• Russ will be willing to answer questions after the investigation. I’ll take odds on this one right now.

It could happen a few ways.

The cheater has to have had access to this high profile transfer account to request money. That means someone has to know him to get him on whatever "list" can request money from Russ. (many ways this can be done including but not limited to Russ knowing exactly where this money is going at the time)

Barry is right that how -Fred- operates is pretty unimportant overall. It's basically a routine management account to get money to VIPs, UB pros, etc. Any particular name being on that list is pretty non-newsworthy.

The superuser (Shaqtack) being on the list though was big. It was the first large connection made showing that somebody in upper management/ownership has to now know who was doing the cheating- even if they want to claim they didn't know at the time.

We also know now that Russ is moving money around thru -Fred-, and that someone who requested money from Russ got it thru the confirmed cheating sleepless account also.

So Barry's point about about it all tying in together stands out.

Russ seems to have dug himself deeper into a hole. He vehemently avoids any discussion of ownership issues. The only logical reason to do this is because you have something to hide regarding the issue.

Then he says he doesn't even really know a lot of the people mentioned including Paul L (correct if he didnt say that)...yet he (RUSS) says in three months the investigation will be complete and all will be known. How the hell does he know details of the investigation and when it will be over then if he's not running the show? That makes absolutely no sense.

Sorry, but this is the complete opposite of Nat's statement below. Russ just made himself sound very much in control.

athletec:
"I have all the respect in the world for Barry Greenstein, but it sounds as if Russ succeeded in pulling the wool over Barry’s eyes in the so-called “interview”.

• Russ wouldn’t address the ownership issue. Rather than saying this will help people understand Russ’s and UB’s behavior, Barry seems to let Russ off the hook by saying it’s understandable that people don’t want to talk about ownership of internet companies, especially poker sites.

• Russ really wanted to talk but his lawyer wouldn’t let him (right!). Yes, no one can force him to talk, but how many times have I heard people use their lawyer as an excuse for not answering hard questions. If he hasn’t done anything wrong, it’s hard to imagine why he wouldn’t quickly and publicly address all of the allegations being made against him."


I disagree with this. The wool wasn't pulled over Barry's eyes. Russ won't answer the questions. Is he supposed to punch him or something?

About the ownership issues -- just saying you are the owner can get you arrested. Barry probably has friends who have pieces.

I worked for a wall street firm and we had a pretty ugly insider trading case. Some of the people who were hurt were friends of mine. The first words out our boss' mouth when it broke was do not talk to anyone about this. Standard operating procedure I think.

Even if Greg Pierson were not involved with this, do you think the CEO of a large company would make a statement about it? No. Too much liabilty.

Just now listening to Pokerroad and the first thing that jumps out is Barry going out of his way to suggest that UB is different from AP in that it was a holecard viewing exploit at UB and not at AP. According to Nat from his trip report, AP was based on a server side program called Servman which allowed for a realtime access to holecard viewing. Truly at this point, it seems as if both scandals use very similar exploits.

Court is like the hillbilly Columbo lol

Barry commented that Russ was at least precluded from commenting on ownership b/c of our government's stance and the history of arrests for those involved.

if Russ was honest/upstanding/blameless (not saying he is, i have no clue at this point) he still would be advised against commenting on any ownership. it is not in his best interest. strike that - it is more than likely against any interest he might have.

as for Pierson, he also has no incentive to comment. first, b/c he might not be able to produce any proof of his statements. supposedly ioVation is not in cahoots with the owners of the online sites (anymore?); so he wouldn't be able to produce any evidence to clear his name or back any statements he would make. also, he currently has a technology security firm that has secured funding some big ass companies - like Intel. why would he jeopardize that, even if he was innocent? silence is golden.

again, i am not saying any of the people are guilty or innocent. i am saying that they all know a few things:
1) our government will arrest owners of offshore gambling entities and/or banking sites. wp David Carruthers & Gary Kaplan of BetOnSports. gg Neteller et al.

2) b/c of our governments stance, the UIGEA, and the fact that these operations have required a history of having to be offshore, all parties involved know that the chance of someone getting to them is pretty slim. for all the 2+2's investigating, we really have no clue who owns UB. or PokerStars for that matter. and probably won't. evar.

2a) ownership needs to be a shell game to avoid prosecution of your "investors". you've got companies that do the technology, but no ownership; companies that host the servers, but no ownership; companies that handle the marketing/branding, but no ownership. blah blah blah. i mean, really, how are Howard Lederer or Annie Duke allowed to traipse through customs when a guy like David Carruthers is arrested? these companies have had to take serious steps in protecting themselves, not just b/c they are scammers, but often just b/c they want to offer us a product.

anyway, sorry to rant, but w/o an insider, the chance of this blowing up (more) is slim (where or where is brainwashdodo when you need him?). the UB investigation might give us something new, but it looks doubtful. same for 60 Minutes. and guilty or innocent, all parties involved are betting on those two outcomes.

Wow, what a read.

I've played poker for over 25 years in almost every form.

Cheating remains a real issue. no different than when the Stardust routinely brought in coolers to let their pals take off the suckers.

Mass numbers of people take unfair advantage whenever they can. People trade stocks on insider knowledge without blinking an eye, every hour of the day. People do what they can to get "edge" ... a person who seeks edge has some sort of "line" in place as to what they won't do .. but such a line is VERY subject to moving depending on the circumstances.

Cheating goes with poker, like peanut butter goes with jelly.

The very game itself involves taking advantage of the greed of others.

Everybody who plays the game is a 'hustler' ... one who wishes to take advantage of another for financial gain.

To hear everybody weeping with shock and dismay that substantive proof that online poker is 'rigged' to give some people unfair advantage is sort of weird. Obviously just like playing cards are ideal props to cheat people, an online game involving keeping small digital 'secrets' from one another (which is basically what happens when we play poker) played for money will obviously result in people figuring out ways to take unfair advantage .. to let them know the secrets of others by jury-rigging the computer system. It's just too tempting .. it's like marking cards ... the time tested shop worn way to cheat a poker game. Being able to see all the cards is just too much every poker player's dream come true .. it's like the reason playing cards were invented .. so they can be marked by cheaters. There is no more perfect, more efficient device to cheat others than marked playing cards.

So nobody should be shocked when "marked cards" appear online. Marked cards are part of the game of poker.

When a cheat was unmasked "back in the day" , what typically happened is the community 'outed' that person, and very often insured that person would not cheat anymore. They did this by ruining their reputation (every gambler's most precious resource) and sometimes by breaking their fingers.

Such is exactly what is happening here. The cheaters are in the process of being unmasked. While there will be no legal repercussions (there never is when any sort of gambling cheating thing is discovered) .. there will be plenty of real world repurcussions. The cheater will not be able to cheat anymore because everybody will know whassup. Unfortunately in a virtual world, the only equivalent to breaking one's fingers is turning off their access to the system .. such cannot happen because the cheater can change their cyber identify as easily as changing their clothes. But without access to their unfair advantage, the cheats will have no reason to be part of such a community any more .. and will crawl away and find other communities to fleece. Such is how it has always been, and such is what will happen here.

But there will be no legal repercussions ... talking about such is just fantasy and a waste of time. Some reputations will be forever ruined and people will be much more careful in the future. Such is how it should be.

My thoughts as well, it doesn't make sense.

Also, another anomoly is the: 'old' owners are waiting on their next payment from the 'new' owners, so people are keeping quiet - surely this argument only holds up for the 'old' owners not the 'new'.

What, the 'new' owners are waiting until they have made a payment before saying anything??

[QUOTE=athletec;5153518]

• Russ says there’s an investigation going on that will answer everything in two or three months. This is the one I’m most curious about. Who’s doing the investigating? If it’s UB, why wouldn’t they make a public statement to this effect? Hopefully the investigation that’s taking place is a criminal investigation.

QUOTE]

Didn't AP at least invite Nat down and basically give him access to investigate? Shouldn't UB hire an independent 3rd party to investigate? An internal investigation has exactly zero credbility IMO.

I think this is definitely the right spot. Why is your friend concerned, and who is he? Who told you about Full Tilt problems? I don't know any pros of the top of my head abbreviated "TL".

i was very surprised to hear russ isn't out of the country yet along with all the info he gave to the affect he still owns ub/ap.

I posted this the other day

Seems they have removed the picture and quote from Carolyn Heick; fraud manager at Excapsa, Inc. (unknown if she is still there or not).

Here is the google cache; the quote is priceless "When exactly, did I lose control?"

if anyone has the 2005 aruba poker classic FT recording, please pm me, i really want to go over this

Carolyn Heick? The one that changed the account names on superusers?
She might still be at the company since she can get things off of UB-2 and seems interested in this thread.

That didn't get taken down until she got outed here.