I'm not familiar with exactly what programs you mean. But if they do that, then they are more than just a HUD and a distinction can easily be drawn between them and HUDs that display information. Again, I'm not getting into a conversation regarding whether either, both or neither should be allowed


I think you are wrong about any programs existing that can do exactly what you described (at least accurately). You described a program that will tell you how often you will win the current hand if you call a bet.

Also, I'm nearly 100% sure that you are talking about programs that are more than just HUDs (even if they maybe call themselves HUD or something). HUD stands for Heads Up Display.


Yea, that is true.

What the HUD would do is the following calculation: (X / Y) * 100 = Z

where

X = number of times opponent "overbet" (however overbet is defined) the river and got called; and
Y = the number of times opponent won such hands

Z will then show the percentage of the time that in the past the opponent won the hand when he overbet the river and got called.

Various different calculations on different past play can be made and displayed by a HUD.

However, hands can play out very differently. The percentage that the opponent won when overbetting and getting called all times that it happened in the past is not necessarily (and in many cases for many different stats, it certainly will not be) a good representation of the chance that the opponent will win if you call this particular overbet on this particular current hand.

The HUD is not predicting the future and telling you your chances of winning if you call. It is simply calculating the percentage of times that the opponent did X in the past or the percentage of times that opponent won when he did Y in the past. Such percentage may or may not be applicable to the current hand.

HUDs would still be useful, though as you state maybe not as useful. The rest of this paragraph isn't really related.

First of all, that is impossible. "Call versus X, Y and Z with A, B" where X is stats for a certain player, Y is street, and Z is amount etc..." and "A is your holding, B is board texture..." The chart would be like millions of pages long to take into account all variables. (And I'm not aware of the existence of any such charts.) Someone's going to look at the information displayed by their HUD and flip through this chart on their desk to figure out what to do? It isn't practical and wouldn't work, although it might be allowed under most site's terms and conditions. Most allow HUDs. I think most allow looking at charts; I'm not sure (either way they couldn't really do anything about you looking at some paper on your desk). The only times charts are really at all useful are for push/fold in low blind situations and starting hand charts pre-flop.

Second of all, if the program itself had it built into it to tell you what action to take, then it is more than a HUD.

However, as I described in above posts, I doubt such program would even be that good at telling you what action to use in that manner for the reasons stated above. Most actually good programs that tell you what action to take don't work that way. PokerSnowie for instance works using a neural network where it played many lifetime's worth of hands against itself and by trial and error figured out what plays work best in general. GTO solvers find the equilibrium between two ranges. Those types of programs do not work by interpreting the stats of opponents that may be displayed by a HUD.

Now, I don't really know anything about programming a bot, but I guess you can in some instances make it take into account HUD stats of opponents and adjust its play. I guess they probably do that in some instances. But, again, if a program has that feature of playing or telling you what play to make, whether based on opponents stats that may be displayed in a HUD or not based on such stats, then:






HUDs display information. If a program does anything else, then it is more than a HUD.

If people want to appropriate the term HUD for programs that do more than display information, then we need to make a distinction between different types of "HUDs" because they are vastly different.

If it displays information, in a way that changes your behavior, it is leading you to a decision. It doesn't have to say "call", if it shows "information" that makes "call" an obvious decision, I don't see a material difference between the two.

In your definition, seeing what the guy bet and how many chips he has left is using a HUD.

All information leads you to a decision, in the sense that supposedly you use all information in making your decision. This includes the information of what two cards you are holding and much other information (some more important than others).

HUDs do not display information that in the vast majority of situations would, IMO, make "call" an obvious decision. HUDs typically display the percentage of the time a player took a particular action when he had the opportunity to take such action in the past. As was mentioned by someone else above, they may contain some stats that display the percentage of the time that a certain event occurred when a player took a certain action in the past.


No, that is just looking at the display of the poker game created by the poker site. A HUD would overlay information (data) over that display such that a user could view it without having to look away from his/her usual viewpoint (i.e. the display of the poker game created by the poker site).

Wikipedia on HUDs





EDIT:

Also, it isn't my definition. I didn't make it up. It is the definition of "HUD," standing for "Heads Up Display"). I believe it originally came into meaning with respect to aircraft and is, I think, most typically used in various types of vehicles (particularly military) so that the driver/pilot/whatever can view necessary data and instrument readings, etc. without looking away from the road/sky/etc.

By the definition you posted, the opponent's chip stack being displayed on your screen where you are looking, is in fact a HUD.

You should ask a refund indeed.I hope at least as an actuary you are better than poker so people and clients have not trouble.

Don't know how much up money you are than me from poker and i think it's not relevant here.But obviously you have no clue how a hud really works and how regs use it. Also you should stick to live poker because its softer than online(nl10 online is like nl100 on live i guess) and you can keep be easier delusional as far as true winrate,variance etc. I suggest you to be honest to yourself and don't blame sites about their sell product.Instead you can admit you are just bad online,you can't beat it and you lack of basic knowledge because this is obvious by comparing bots and HUDs as almost the same thing.

Ok. I'm really losing track of your point. Wasn't your point that HUDs are basically the same as bots? How does trying to argue that basically everything on the computer screen, including the chip stacks, are a HUD bolster your point?

But, ok, I could see the interpretation that things like chip stack and pot count, etc. is a HUD on the poker game. I would differentiate those as internal HUDs provided by the game software to provide game information. I really don't think anyone has ever expressed a problem with the existence of the internal HUD providing game information. I think the issue that was being discussed was external HUDs that are not provided by the game software and that display additional information/data.

Behind all the anti-hud rhetoric is sometimes just an unwillingness to learn anything beyond the absolute basics about poker. It's no use having a hud if you don't know what an X% range actually means etc. So rather than having to learn more than the basics it's easier to rant about huds.

I think everyone arguing about HUDs should take a look at the title of this thread.

No.

That wraps up that.

It's usually GTO to abandon any NVG thread as soon as anyone mentions HUDs. :/

Hi ty4thDime$:

No. This is not true because it would be a dynamic situation and not a stable one.

What will happen, and it should happen quickly, is that the two competing rooms would make adjustments as to what their rake is. The room with the low rake would quickly raise it if they see that the high rake room has business, and the room with the high rake would probably lower their rake being afraid of having all their business taken away.

Also, this is easy to see. In a competitive market, such as the Las Vegas poker rooms, most rooms have the same rake.

Best wishes,
Mason

you have invested quite a few posts in demonstrating just how ignorant you are of what a HUD is in an online poker sense, and of how they work. but I think this particular post takes the cake. good luck with your XYZ charts

I have watched a friend play using his HUD and he talked me through his decision making while pointing at the stats etc...

I left thinking how very un-fun this was. I get paid decent to do work at my job so if playing online has to become work, well online poker simply can't afford me.

i.e. I could learn to use a HUD, but when I log in, I want to play poker.

All you HUD using regs enjoy the great games that are left in the environment that you helped create.

Maybe the answer to maing poker fun again is rakeback?

A human with a HUD is basically a guy too lazy to program a BOT for himself.
Neither of them are playing poker.

So, when you notice an opponent is playing too tight, do you do anything to adjust? If so, are you not playing poker anymore? Because that's all a HUD is for - noting how an opponent tends to play and adjusting accordingly.

Yes and you took the definition of HUD to be "displays information" even though it has been pointed out that "HUDs" are often more or less than that.

i.e. if you programmed your HUD to help give you information on if you should call or raise, you would claim that is not truly a HUD. Others could easily claim it is simply giving me information on what the best next move should be.

We have definitely drifred from the original topic of rake, but I think my overall point is that rake is not as important to the rec than what a perceived "fair game" is. When they deposit $100 and lose it, they don't think, wow I only lost $60 to poker and $40 to rake.

It's not "noting". It is being told by a program how to adjust.

Why not take it to the next logical step and have the program adjust for you?

HUD is a word (more accurately acronym, but it stands for words). Those words have a meaning. If "it" is more or less than that meaning, then "it" is not a HUD. If people or companies want to appropriate the name "HUD" for those things that are more or less than such, then in order to have any meaningful conversation, people will have to differentiate what types of HUDs they are talking about. You seem unwilling to do this.

The meaning of HUD, as has been posted before, is:


Maybe, it was my mistake to use the word "information" instead of the word "data" in prior posts, but I was using it intending to mean the same. HUDs display such information/data. Displaying: "You should call now" or "You should raise now" is not displaying information/data as meant in the definition of a HUD. That is displaying what action to take. I really don't think it should be that hard to tell the difference between displaying data based on calculations derived from the actions and results of past hands and displaying advice as to what action a player should take in the current hand.

And, as I have also said multiple times, even if the name "HUD" is to be used for programs that do more than simply display information/data based on past actions or results, then, in that case, for purposes of discussion like this one and whether or not HUDs should be allowed, people will have to differentiate among different types of HUDs because there would be a number of different programs called a HUD that would do vastly different things. (Sure all of them could be made against the rules, but the arguments you are making as to why they should be (i.e. because they tell you how to play and thus are basically bots) would not apply to all of them.) In such case, such differentiation would be necessary to have any meaningful discussion. And you seem unwilling to do that.

No you are wrong again. HUD shows tendencies that some reg might use wrong or don't notice them at all.Its all about how good use of it a reg does and how much knowledge in depth has for the game.The program says f.e. you are doing this move 25%, it doen't say fold or call etc or suggesting any move.And be sure that a good reg he can notice(if he plays less tables 1-4) how an opponent plays without even a HUD.

A HUD doesn't "tell you" anything. it doesn't give suggestions, or dictate correct play. A HUD is no different than using a sheet of paper to take notes on your opponents. Would you consider that cheating/botting as well?

Since a sheet of paper can take the place of a HUD, what's the objection to banning HUDs, given that players can still according to your comment generate the same data manually?

The truth is, HUDs take the place of inferences players make (when playing live or online in a HUD-free game) using their powers of memory and reasoning to accumulate information on player tendencies and devise approaches to exploit them.

HUDs keep track of many more data points and much more exactly than a human brain or a human with a pen and paper could. Given that, whether they should be allowed or not allowed is not a conversation I am getting into.

A pen and paper can perform the same functions as a HUD, but it is much slower. When playing multiple tables, it isn't possible to record all of this data by hand, which makes an automated tool like a HUD useful.

Anyone who lets a HUD take the place of their memory and reasoning is invited to play with me any time. There isn't a single good poker player who uses a HUD like that.

I have a full time job and consider myself a recreational player. I'm winning in my games and enjoy using a hud. Poker isn't even my sole hobby, I also play sport and make a racket on the guitar occasionally as well. Despite all that I enjoy learning about poker and love the challenge of it, similar to the way some people love chess. You have no interest in learning the game beyond the very basics, which is fair enough, but the anti-hud stuff is just envy at those who are able to utilise them from someone who knows he can't.

As for online poker not affording you that's just lol, you can't play on Stars, that's nothing to do with affordability. So no loss there then.