When number of tables was increased we saw that a lot of people who played high stakes started grinding lower stakes (e.g. aejones and many other who played 500nl on stars and 400nl rush on tilt). If they could not play 16 regular tables or 4 zoom tables then it would be too low for them to play so that would make these games easier for recreational players.

Full tilt had softer games than Stars and that is the difference between 16 and 12 tables (or was it 24 vs 16?).

Some other sites with lover limit had even softer games. Really, how many regulars who grind 100 and 200nl would grind if the number of tables they could play was reduces 4 times. Fish don't play so many tables so I don't understand why sites who want to protect recreational players allow players to play that many tables in the same time? Oh, yeah, it is because they just pretend that they want to protect fish.

They should adopt a model where no rake is ever taken from pots, but rather from the winning players at the end of each day/week/whatever. Maybe something like 1% of their net win capped at a reasonable amount. That way all fees would be paid by winning players and losing players would last far longer naturally.

I suppose that would never work live with all of the rat holing and chip swapping people would do, but it's a good idea for online.

Mate what you don't understand is that this solution will not change one thing.Lets say stars limit tables to 1 zoom and 4 regular. A pro will not be forced necessarily to move up stakes or not play. He will just grind this one zoom table and 4 regular or maybe he ll add other tables from other sites. He will continue to play the same stakes just he will decrease his volume to this site because of table limits. And YES sites want to protect their buisiness to have a sustainable long term profit for them.

Multi-tabling across sites is hard. As long as the pool of pro's decrease their volume (it doesn't matter if some quit, or they all just play less), the quality of the games will improve. That's the point.

Do you play with a HUD?

If so, why?

I play only on stars last 4-5 months but tbh it's not top secret that many regs use HUD on other sites especially on stakes nl50+.The point is that most of these sites made recs delusional that are protected from regs while the situation is not changed a lot.You can have a try to some of these networks and see if tables are softer lets say than stars and if a real impact happened to the pool after they made tables anononymous.Are you seriously asking why?Then ask yourself why people use scripts,hotkeys,starshelper,PIO and many other software.

It is harder to multitable on different sites and pro/rec ratio per table on stars would decrease.

Now even on zoom, if you have the same number of pros and recs in the games it would feel like 5 to 1 because pros play 4 tables and less hands so they play more hands.

I would limit to 1 zoom or 4 regular tables like in old party days

If HUDs are not a problem and are "meaningless", than why do you use one?

Limiting the number of tables would also decrease the effectiveness of bots and it would decrease number of bots per table.

I said it would be meaningless to ban them because many regs will still use them again like what is happening to other sites right now. I did NOT say that it is useless and that it give no edge to regs. But if you are a rec and a site says to you are protected from HUDs and regs and even tho you are not so protected again what is worst? To give an option to a rec to use HUD like a reg does so it is an equal choice or make recs delusional by saying '' our games are best for fun because you are protected from regs''? i would prefer the first as a rec than been delusional that i am really protected.

Regs and HUDs are different issues.

I don't want to ban regs. I enjoy playing poker against good players.
I do want to ban HUDs so that we are playing the same game with the same information.

(Me) --> (HUD players) is very similar to (HUD players) --> (Bots), IMO.

Mate have you ever used a HUD to realise how it really works? Believe it or not HUDs are more usufull for multitabling(7+ tables) ,exploit other weaker regs analyse your own game and in general strategy from other regs.In micro or small stakes a good reg does not need HUD against rec so much especially if he plays 3-6 tables because he will take their money soon or later.He needs only to spot the rec/fish . Lets say you are a rec and i have you on my HUD. Then i won't have so much sample for you and so your stats will not be realistic to really exploit you by using the HUD in depth.Also you ll decline so much from your stats because mostly you ll do random things. I don't need a HUD to tell me you don't defend your blinds as you should or you are a station because you ll decline a lot from what is a good strategy one way or another.A reg with a good strategy even without HUD will take recs money again not too much later as you believe.
Maybe they should ban labels too,ban people folding with 72 or ban people who seat with 100bb eff stack and all these to protect the ecosystem so sites gain more profit and recs feel way more safe in their own mind.
If you doubt about all of these try to play to one site where you ll be anonymous and HUDs are not allowed and let us know how much greater was your experience there and if you actually beat the regs.

How do you feel about Bots?

I guess all grinders(including me) and all recs hate them but keep in mind that many stories about bots revealed after a deep search with HUDs and databases.By the way you ll find more bots in sites where you are protected by HUDs etc because when a botter can change his sn every 1k hand it's more difficult to be detected or sites could not care less about this situation as long as they have traffic. BUT at least they protect you from HUDs and regs.

Why do you hate them? They are basically just HUD v2.0, IMO.

I think you need to completely revaluate what is poker as a strategy game with factor of luck i guess. I am sure you never realised how HUD works(literally 0 knowledge of statistics) and obv you are completely naive of coding etc if you compare these two.The key difference is that HUD is used by a human being live while he plays(and f.e. you are capable to start doing this in many sites but you are a rec) and a bot is an inserted strategy by coding so coder does not need to be there.There is no human factor while a bot plays.
Next time i ll grind MTTs i won't search opponents on OPR so you don't feel you are unprotected.What else does bother you and you blame it for losing on poker tables?The weather? Banks?The screen a reg uses? Tell us and maybe a site will might start to ban it to protect you.You can create a site where you ll play all alone so there will be no chance to lose.

I added the bold to the quote for clarity. Also for clarity, the question was not actually directed to me. And I'm not really planning on getting into a conversation regarding whether it would be better if poker sites allowed or banned HUDs and allowed or banned bots.

But:

I don't think bots and HUDs are really at all the same thing, much less HUDs being version 1 of something and bots basically being version 2 of such thing.

HUDs display information.

Bots, in this context, play poker.

If HUDs display information like fold, check, bet, or probability of win if you call (calculated from opponents statistics), there is no much difference.

It is easy to have something like that, probably players from Montenegro used something like that in Zoom 500NL

your post is a bit incomprehensible. but are you saying that you think HUDs advise a player whether to "fold, check, bet, or probability of win if you call (calculated from opponents statistics)" ? cause if so you clearly do not know how HUDs work.

Although if you read the post you quoted it would help you:

I agree that if HUDs display things like that, then there would not be any difference, but HUDs do not display things like that.



Fold, check or bet aren't even information; they are potential actions.

I guess probability to win if you call is information (or maybe it is actually a prediction and not information if you actually mean somehow actually displaying that rather than displaying the result of some calculation based on past actions). But either way it is not information regarding past actions, which is what the HUDs I am generally familiar with actually display. I'm not aware of any HUD that displays probability to win if you call. Maybe there is something out there that would display it, but I doubt it would be at all useful. There is no way a program like that would be able to calculate it. Like, sure, a program could do some calculations based on past actions such as calculating the percentage of time that in the past the opponent bet the river, got called and lost (HUDs probably do have that stat actually I would guess) and then we could say the result of that formula is the percentage that you would win if you call now, but it isn't really because all of the details of every hand would be different making such calculation not an actual calculation of your chance to win now if you call and actually making such calculation probably pretty worthless and not really all that applicable to the current hand (it certainly wouldn't at all represent an actually accurate percentage of your chances to win if you call on the current hand). You could try making the formula for the calculation more complicated by utilizing multiple further variables to cull down the past hands used in the calculation, but you're never going to get it good enough and you're going to keep decreasing your sample size. If a program can actually do this with anything close to an accurate percentage, then such program is way beyond what a HUD is. I don't really think there are any programs out there that could do exactly what you describe here.

Some of them do display things like that (or they say by voice to you what action you need to take).

There are. That is why pokerstars had to update their terms and condition because people used it in hypers and had exactly the same stats. HUDs also had to change to adapt to stars policy but other sites did not change policy. Also there are some private huds that stars does not know about and it is hard or impossible to detect.

Anyways even normal HUD gives you information that you could not have in your memory and could not calculate on the fly, so it is not the same like playing against the same guy in a casino if they have computer aid.

In current HUDs you can set it up to see if someone overbets the river if they usually win so it is basically the same as HUD saying to you that you should fold. No much difference.

However if you limit the number of tables then huds would not be that useful, and it would reduce pros(or bots)/recs ratio. More recs could move higher after a good run and then money would again trickle up like in old days when people went from 25NL to high stakes in less than a year.

It is obviously that you luck knowledge of HUD and statistics in general.Stats in HUDs are dynamic not static.f.e you raise cbet 20% that does not mean you will raise cbet 20% against me.There are many factors that its not so accurate(history,human factor,tilt,my cbet stat etc).A HUD shows info and tendencies.Obv a reg who knows how to take advantage of it perfect he ll find more leaks from an opponent and he ll do better options. But comparing HUDs with bots it is just funny.

if the huds were so op, any rec could just take a 30-day trial and crush limits. but somehow a lot of regs misjudge numbers on the hud and make mistakes because dont know how to interpret stats and lack poker knowledge to do that correctly.

the only problem with huds is mining or hh sharing. that thing is really unfair.

I probably should get a refund for my actuarial credentials.

I am a winning player, but I don't play much online anymore since no good sites sell their product to me in a way I want to play. I would bet I am up far more money lifetime than you are from poker. Especially if you combine live with online, but that is neither here or there.

This thread is about how to structure rake to help get recs back to depositing and I know that things like HUDs are also a deterrent to recs playing.

If you combine a HUD with a chart that says "call versus X, Y and Z with A, B" where X is stats for a certain player, Y is street, and Z is amount etc..." and "A is your holding, B is board texture..." etc... you have a bot that uses a human to click for it.

The bot just takes the HUD stats and speeds up the decision making. And as others have said, some even display help with the decision.

It's all on the continuum from poker --> Bot on Bot violence.