Lol at angleshot bet. If anything you trying to get me to bet against the chart can provide an example in some circumstances is an angleshot since i have clearly never said anything to the contrary whereas you have with regards to what I want to bet on. I said knowing nash calling range at 20bb whereas you quoted that and took it out of context so it read like I was saying knowing nash would provide no advantage even if there strategy was to open fold 100%, which is quite patently not what I meant.


My orginial points



My offered bet in the PM

Where's the angle?


If you aren't willing to bet on this then you are clearly admitting this statement was wrong. You say it's unbeatable, I'm willing to bet 1k otherwise:

Also wrt your point about someone having nash on their desktop. It can (and in alot of cases should be used) when stacks are smaller (significantly smaller than 20bb). You can say it's useless at 20bb but that doesn't mean it is of no use in a HU game. I have it on a desktop and it is usuless at 20bb are mutually exclusive statements.

Yea but you're basically saying "the strategy isn't great, but for a very bad player it can sometimes be better than their very bad current strategy."

The problem (or positive depending on how you look at it) with the chart is that people find it, use it, and then forget about their strategy at 10bb or less, or 12bb or less, or in some cases even deeper. They also just default to the chart when they aren't sure of what to do at 10-20bb.

This ends up hurting people a lot more than helping them in the long run, even many (perhaps most) guys that were doing worse stuff before they found the chart.

The reason is because the chart cuts down on your own thinking and decreases the chance that you'll ever arrive at the correct decision in those areas.

I'm not sure charts actually are as great for the games as I and others seem to think/have thought. I mean, the kind of people that just blindly use a chart to make decisions, if they don't win very quick they probably quit. It's a sort of get rich quick type shortcut solution. A lot of guys that use charts blindly might be better off having superior knowledge of shove/fold (since a lot of edge comes from other areas of play too). Not really sure on this entire paragraph though. So hard to judge without data.

It shouldn't really be used at these areas either, unless you're too lazy to make your own chart and unaware of superior ones out there.

The reason is, unless you're very certain your opponent uses Nash BB (the avg player does not, the population tendencies ring a small to medium bit tighter than Nash BB, therefore jamming wider should be your default), you should be employing a jamming strategy based on their calling range (absent info you default to population tendencies which are not Nash BB).

If you were reviewing your own play in PT4, for instance, you should not be referencing the nash charts when figuring out if pushes and folds and calls were correct in shove or fold type situations. An ICMIZER, sngwiz type tool and charts against population tendencies are what would be ideal. And it's not like that stuff is super advanced either. Free videos and forum posts on 2p2 explain this stuff.

Always blind them out.

Some of the analogies are weak and not applicable(lost wallet come on).

Heres better example, if you were playing a basketball game in a league and someone loses their shoe mid-game, do you wait for them to put it back on? Nope.

If you were in a hockey game and opponent breaks his hockey stick, do you pause and wait for him to go to the bench to retrieve a new one? Nope.

Equipment failure is an assumption of risk in all games.

i think we can all agree that in micro stakes, you take the money and run to buy cheeseburgers.

prob goes same for low. 100% angus with fresh portabellas?

mid and higher: debatable.

I have had this happen to me a few times and it is definitely the suckiest way to lose a tournament but it is not unethical. Unethical would be if I sent someone over to cut your Internet connection while we were playing. This is just variance

I would do it yeah, but if I knew the guy I was playing and we were cool I would wait five or ten minutes out of respect. vs randoms though sorry brah

Whatever I felt I owed them I'd allow them to freeroll me HU for it but if I win I'm keeping it. If I knew the guy was a dick I wouldn't give them anything.

Weak argument IMO. 5 to some is 100 to others

I play poker to make money. If your connection fail its entirely your fault and yours only. Give you a few examples. In football, when a team fails to show up due to whatever reasons, the other team wins as a result of a walkover. They do not postpone/replay or declare it as a draw. In tennis, when a player gets injured in a match, he/she forfeits it. As stated, poker is a like a sport and should not be treated differently. Obviously we as humans would not want to win this way as it is deemed 'unethical or scummy' by some, but its just the way the world is.

just ****** do it and know people will do it to you. If you know the person and dont think they would then dont. beyond that there's no discussion.

If he told you "no," would you think him indecent?

Like quoted in this thread my point of view is that blinding down someone that dc'd is similar to finding a wallet and not returning it... most people would not return my wallet if they found it, but I would never myself consider not doing so. I've honestly only started sending back/waiting for everyone, including randoms, fish, and even people that have blinded me down since around half a year ago. I was playing a few 1k's, sat some other lobs and disconnected, which hasn't happened to me for well over a year and when I came back everyone had blinded me down, even sat my open lobbies to take that money to. Don't think I've ever felt so angry, frustrated and disgusted with people for a long time (and loathed myself for the hipocracy of this, hadn't I been blinding fish down just as well up to this point?), decided that I'd never want to be that kind of person, cause these feelings to others.

I don't hold myself for a saint, please make the decision on this point for yourself, but I hope I can inspire other's to do the right thing.

ya i agree.

in the higher stake arena tho-- for someone that you may see in live games or if you know/play them regularly online-- if they blinded me off id be pissed, but id be even more pissed that i got disconnected and didnt have a backup connection

if its someone thats been friendly to you with you online or live and theey still blinded you off, then id say thats pretty shady and says a little bit about their character

Blind them out ASAP, don't give them a chance to get back

Everyone should do this

Abusive people always find a way to exploit weaknesses that most people show on a regular basis. If you don't steal the blinds, you invite the vampires into your home.

Also, make your own decisions. If you need permission from strangers, you're lost.

When I was in my army service there were people stealing clothings from others and the second time I too became a victim of it, I stole back from someone. The thing was that it was a permanent thing going on all the time and not only one needed to protect better but also steal back or be the victim.

The ethical move is to steal back (the second time) and I have no doubt about it, especially if it's not even a crime or it's safe enough compared to the penalty one might get, that's also something one needs to consider, like being some very known player or when playing vs. some fish one can't really let one's image to go bad, and there are other exceptions where it's better to just be fair, but this case on average is fair only if one steals back.

if i understand you correctly, i disagree that you have to both "protect better" & also "steal back" in order to not be victim to this theft. the "protect better" seems to be the solution imo, there will always be scumbags looking to gain personally no matter the cost to others. i guess there is a case to be made in the OP to do unto others as they do you, but overall, i think you should make an effort to wait, within reason and in certain cases even ship back.

pretty much what i was going to write. its part of online poker and the risk you take if you have a crappy internet connection

They should just award the prize to whoever disconnects and move on to the next tournament (once you run out of your disconnect time bank)

If you disconnect you lose, no need to get into the realm of possible reverse freerolling yourself.

I think it's 100% shady if you are trying to speed up the process. i.e. Ready to raise instantly every time on button.

[ x ] recognizing reality and speeding up the process
[ ] "100% shady"
[ ] "shady"

Dude, if you wouldn't blind that guy out, you don't have the killer instinct to be a great poker player. You have to be a bit of a sociopath.

Once i was in hu and got dlc'ed guy who won match sent me $ difference on my acc. like we chopped price. Nice guest from that guy...

Yea, but I think what alot of people are saying is that the guy is a scumbag if he didnt refund you, and that is just wrong.

I think as online poker players we all agree to take the risk of our computer crashing, mouse breaking, internet going down etc as the cost of doing business. We put ourself at risk because we feel its not a deterrent from what we feel is a profitable activity. The once a year occurrence is not much to think about in terms of poker stretegy. My feel is that vs someone that you do not have a personal (or at least professional) relationship with it is perfectly fine to blind them down immediately as it is within the rules of the game, and you are not angling or committing anything wrong in doing so. Also if it is done to you you must accept that you are responsible for your own connection.

But this is very different than finding a wallet on the street etc. When I leave the house I know there are risk of dropping my wallet etc, but I am not playing A GAME dealing with my grocery money. It is actually a lose if the unfortunate occurs and you would hope in a civilized society people will help each other out. That is not the case because as players we have an understanding that we will each try out best to take each others money.

Bottom line.
In life we should have an understanding that within reason we should help our fellow man.
In poker we have an understand that we will try out best to make our opponent completely broke.