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Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP?

06-06-2022 , 08:28 AM
Imagine if every other player at the table "played within the rules" and took over a minute for every decision. You would play 5 hands an hour, if lucky. Maybe thats the solution here ? Everyone else at his table stall , in the hopes that WSOP changes something .
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 09:02 AM
I have mad respect for his pre & post flop gaming tree. Inferior players and those who do not use solvers will never understand.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 09:11 AM
Maybe he is running RTA under that blanket he's wearing, and it takes a couple mins to run through the scenarios?
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 10:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyfnmoney
I have mad respect for his pre & post flop gaming tree. Inferior players and those who do not use solvers will never understand.
He’ll have nobody to whom he can demonstrate his superior abilities if his interminable processes drive people away from the game…

We can understand the complexities of his decision making, just as we do those of Kasparov or other chess GMs. But there has to be a finite amount of time for each player to make those calculations.


Not aware of his online activities, but if he can act within the normal online timings then why not live? Unless he maybe has some electronic assistance with the processing in real time?
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 11:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by EastCoastBalla
You get some sick pleasure always coming at me don't you. My point is those 3 have been outed as known cheats. They have recently been banned from EPT and Triton. Maybe you disagree but someone excessively tanking isn't in the same stratosphere as those 3 cheats.

Sorry if you can't or won't understand this.
While what they did was worse and I think they should be banned what Volgolson is doing is at the WSOP. He should be warned,get some severe penalties if it doesn't stop and eventually banned.

If he was tanking it a WPT for example like this but played at a reasonable pace at the WSOP,WSOP would have no reason to punish him
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyfnmoney
I have mad respect for his pre & post flop gaming tree. Inferior players and those who do not use solvers will never understand.
Who cares.Nobody said he sucks at poker.He doesn't have the right to take 2 mins when not even facing a bet to go through his game tree and ruin the game for everyone. Zero surprise that he's German.

Solver lovers will never understand live poker is a social game.So while he's doing this in high rollers vs elite competition,most of the solver boys tanking like this are ruining their own much lower staked games,sucking all of the fun out of it and costing themselves money in the long run.

What good is it if you can take 2 mins to make a decision that gives you a slightly higher ev in a vacuum,but gets you 1/3rd as many hands an hour as you should get against much tougher competition? Walking past hundreds to pick up quarters....

The best part is by having zero respect for the game or his opponents he's going to have the rule changed so there are shot clocks in this event and similar events next year,which leave him with less time than he would have if he just played reaosnably to begin with.

Last edited by borg23; 06-06-2022 at 11:13 AM.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23
Who cares.Nobody said he sucks at poker.He doesn't have the right to take 2 mins when not even facing a bet to go through his game tree and ruin the game for everyone. Zero surprise that he's German.

Solver lovers will never understand live poker is a social game.So while he's doing this in high rollers vs elite competition,most of the solver boys tanking like this are ruining their own much lower staked games,sucking all of the fun out of it and costing themselves money in the long run.

What good is it if you can take 2 mins to make a decision that gives you a slightly higher ev in a vacuum,but gets you 1/3rd as many hands an hour as you should get against much tougher competition? Walking past hundreds to pick up quarters....

The best part is by having zero respect for the game or his opponents he's going to have the rule changed so there are shot clocks in this event and similar events next year,which leave him with less time than he would have if he just played reaosnably to begin with.

Yea but those quarters might be the silver kind Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP?
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 12:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Balbomb
No Ali, Jake, Bynn, etc should be banned. There should be new ways to speed up play and Vogelsang needs more peer pressure from his friends and peers alike.
Oddly, I could see Vogelsong get some sort of punishment before the Three-Headed Cheat Monster does. The tanking is clearly impacting the enjoyment of the WSOP's customer base, meaning they have a more direct connection to his behavior and thus, might potentially act on it.

What Ali/Jake/Bryn have done is mostly something germane to online poker, making it less likely the WSOP thinks it affects them.

Not saying I like it, but I could see that as a path to victory... at least, in this case.
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06-06-2022 , 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by J33W
Yea but those quarters might be the silver kind Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP?
And Volgeson would stare at it for 2 hours before checking the years to see if they're silver while his friends were waiting for him to go out to dinner
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 02:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by borg23
Who cares.Nobody said he sucks at poker.He doesn't have the right to take 2 mins when not even facing a bet to go through his game tree and ruin the game for everyone. Zero surprise that he's German.

Solver lovers will never understand live poker is a social game.So while he's doing this in high rollers vs elite competition,most of the solver boys tanking like this are ruining their own much lower staked games,sucking all of the fun out of it and costing themselves money in the long run.

What good is it if you can take 2 mins to make a decision that gives you a slightly higher ev in a vacuum,but gets you 1/3rd as many hands an hour as you should get against much tougher competition? Walking past hundreds to pick up quarters....

The best part is by having zero respect for the game or his opponents he's going to have the rule changed so there are shot clocks in this event and similar events next year,which leave him with less time than he would have if he just played reaosnably to begin with.
This is a truly outstanding post. The fact that poker is a social game which relies on recreationals, AKA people playing for FUN, cannot be understated & is big part of why most understand that Vogelsang is one of the most toxic players of a generation. He’s sort of like the anti-Phil Ivey in this sense, instead of inspiring an entire generation and being a catalyst to poker a whole , he is symbolic of the main aspects that threaten the game we love.

But now the second point, I had not even considered but is really noteworthy; a truly elite player would want as many hands as possible in order to minimize variance. Excessive stalling not only significantly decreases hands/hr overall, but it thereby also decreases the % of hands played with higher BBs/SPR. Maybe he is really just terrified of elite competition and seeking to increase his odds of a bink by minimizing hands played with more BBs/higher SPR. Obv the less hands you play per level, the more at the mercy of variation and luck you will be as the blinds continue to increase.

This is further supported by the fact that he does it relentlessly and in what would seem to be trivial spots.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 02:56 PM
Can't ban him, but players can peer pressure the hell out of him until he (a) changes or (b) quits.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 03:12 PM
Didn't watch and woke up to this today. I have to laugh at the commentary for the first Vogelsang match "he's very methodical and takes his time, he catches a lot of heat but has gotten better". lmao
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 03:17 PM
He's Kassouf without the talking.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 03:35 PM
He has skin like a rhino, I'd be too embarressed to take so long. Change the rules and put a clock on everyone, thats fair is it not.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 03:40 PM
Why would he not be able to be banned?

Per the stated WSOP 2022 rules:
“Host properties also reserve the right to exclude any individual(s) acting in a disruptive or inappropriate manner or counter to the best interests of the WSOP.

https://www.wsop.com/2017/Rule%20Cha...he%20Clock.pdf

And, again, and per the same rules:
Any Participant intentionally stalling the progress of the game or unnecessarily calling the clock will incur a penalty in accordance with Rules 40, 113, and 114.”
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 03:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prolifik
Maybe he is running RTA under that blanket he's wearing, and it takes a couple mins to run through the scenarios?

Deserves a lot more love
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 03:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lilu7
Why would he not be able to be banned?

Per the stated WSOP 2022 rules:
“Host properties also reserve the right to exclude any individual(s) acting in a disruptive or inappropriate manner or counter to the best interests of the WSOP.

https://www.wsop.com/2017/Rule%20Cha...he%20Clock.pdf

And, again, and per the same rules:
Any Participant intentionally stalling the progress of the game or unnecessarily calling the clock will incur a penalty in accordance with Rules 40, 113, and 114.”
Because the first part gives them the right to ban whoever they want for basically no reason. Maybe you have a long nose and I have short arms and both of that doesn't look good on TV so the WSOP decides it's in their best interest to ban us?

The second part addresses "intentional stalling" and not "taking a long time for decisions that others don't take a long time for".

What he does is well within the rules. It just sucks that they don't adjust the rules accordingly to stop it.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 03:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex

The second part addresses "intentional stalling" and not "taking a long time for decisions that others don't take a long time for".

What he does is well within the rules. It just sucks that they don't adjust the rules accordingly to stop it.
I posted above but in 2017, WSOP made a change to the “Calling the Clock” rules in which they specified what is meant by “intentionally stalling” since you want to get ambiguous with interpretations of text

“Participants who appear to be deliberately stalling the progress of the game or who frequently call for a
clock unnecessarily will be subject to penalty.
 This rule is intended to discourage stalling or taking an unreasonable amount of time for straightforward
decisions.


https://www.wsop.com/2017/Rule%20Cha...he%20Clock.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by madlex
Because the first part gives them the right to ban whoever they want for basically no reason. Maybe you have a long nose and I have short arms and both of that doesn't look good on TV so the WSOP decides it's in their best interest to ban us?
Someone habitually violating the rules might be “acting in a disruptive or inappropriate manner or counter to the best interests of the WSOP” - just a guess?

Last edited by Lilu7; 06-06-2022 at 04:03 PM.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 04:08 PM
This thread is a red herring that distracts people from focusing on true cheaters who really should be banned. (See other thread.)

I think players in the game should call the clock on this guy and if it persists, he should get a warning from the TD for excessive tanking, but banned, no way. Totally different level than cheating.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 04:16 PM
Not banned but players should be very aggressive at calling the clock
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 04:18 PM
The funny thing is the only peeps who are up in arms about this are those who tried watching the livestream on PokerGO. Vogelsang’s opponent evidently didn’t care enough to call a clock, and PokerGO evidently doesn’t care as I see no statement or anything else. The onus to stop this is on Vogelsang’s opponents by continually calling clock after every 1min tank. Or obviously shot clocks.

I hate tanking like anyone else, but the change isn’t gonna come from frustrated PokerGO viewers screaming from their couches over boredom, it’s only gonna change when players at the table start actively combating it by calling clock.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 04:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly
The funny thing is the only peeps who are up in arms about this are those who tried watching the livestream on PokerGO. Vogelsang’s opponent evidently didn’t care enough to call a clock, and PokerGO evidently doesn’t care as I see no statement or anything else. The onus to stop this is on Vogelsang’s opponents by continually calling clock after every 1min tank. Or obviously shot clocks.

I hate tanking like anyone else, but the change isn’t gonna come from frustrated PokerGO viewers screaming from their couches over boredom, it’s only gonna change when players at the table start actively combating it by calling clock.
I know others here say that there is lots of tanking like this in lower level tournaments but I have rarely seen it. Again imo luckily this guy really only plays a few select high rollers and isn't part of any mainstream poker tournament circuit. He definitely takes tanking to a whole different level.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 05:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyfnmoney
I have mad respect for his pre & post flop gaming tree. Inferior players and those who do not use solvers will never understand.
lol low effort bait.
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobo Fett
The two things aren't related and aren't mutually exclusive. If OP is right and Vogelsang's tanking is enough to meet the bar of breaking the rules, dealing with that issue doesn't impede their ability to deal with other issues.
Let’s try to keep it light. You don’t have to revert to such high-minded tactics like “critical thinking” or “logic”
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote
06-06-2022 , 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheFly
The funny thing is the only peeps who are up in arms about this are those who tried watching the livestream on PokerGO. Vogelsang’s opponent evidently didn’t care enough to call a clock, and PokerGO evidently doesn’t care as I see no statement or anything else. The onus to stop this is on Vogelsang’s opponents by continually calling clock after every 1min tank. Or obviously shot clocks.

I hate tanking like anyone else, but the change isn’t gonna come from frustrated PokerGO viewers screaming from their couches over boredom, it’s only gonna change when players at the table start actively combating it by calling clock.
Don’t you play baby stakes poker where people tank for $60? Go along now & play; the grown-ups are talking
Should Vogelsang be banned from WSOP? Quote

      
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