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Reuters: Full Tilt Poker, Pokerstars and Absolute Poker charged with illegal gambling Reuters: Full Tilt Poker, Pokerstars and Absolute Poker charged with illegal gambling

04-16-2011 , 07:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBootyCutie69
I did this and it brought back the cashier options, it works. If you have a non-us friend you trust, you could transfer your money to them and have them send it to you.
Actually yea I can do it on FT. Have you tried transferring funds to someone?
04-16-2011 , 07:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aabelno
Don't worry: I don't want to pay 90% taxes and have to wait six months for medical care if I get cancer or break my leg.

Also, I don't drink beer and I'm not a big hockey fan.
[ ] knows anything about canada
04-16-2011 , 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aabelno
Don't worry: I don't want to pay 90% taxes and have to wait six months for medical care if I get cancer or break my leg.

Also, I don't drink beer and I'm not a big hockey fan.
ud prefer what u have lololol?
04-16-2011 , 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1938ford
Maybe its semantics, but I think maybe you are confused about what an asset is. If you make a deposit into a bank (or any financial institution in the US) the monies deposited are no longer yours. They are an asset of the bank. The bank makes promises/assurances to you about how they will try to keep your money safe and available to you should you need it, but, your money is now at risk. Should the bank President steal all of the money, or should the bank lose all its assets in a bad investment your money is gone. That is why the US government created the FDIC to insure depositors against a bank failure.

In the case of one of these companies, just like any bank, they have actual physical control of their depositors monies. Your money. They are not in "trust", no matter what the wording of the "regulations" are. They are operating capital plain and simple. They are used every day to settle up. They pay your debts and add your profits to your line on the balance sheets for your account as you win or lose. If your money is stolen by the Company President, or in this case the US Government, it will be gone. Forever? Who knows? The company may have remaining assets to help settle the claims. They may not. Even if these companies are prohibited by "Regulation" from using or taking player monies "Regulations", like laws only keep honest people honest and certainly do nothing to stop the US Government from trying to impose its own will in the matter.
A bank collects funds etc to specifically use them to make money again. I'm 99% sure no single site worth mentioning is allowed to use the money its users deposited for anything that has any risk, and thus the money is safe. I'm also pretty sure the US has no legal grounds to access these funds.
These are not financial institutions.
04-16-2011 , 07:55 PM
I'm in Canada...

> Stars works fine & they have a Statement on their site....

> FT I can't update & it Craps out I can no Longer Log into it...

> The Silence from Mr. Lederer after 24 hours is deafening...http://www.howardlederer.com/news

At least Stars is working whats up with FT?
04-16-2011 , 07:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fear Itself
i think you have to uninstall and install through the uk fulltilt site.
Link to their uk site? Sorry I was unable to find anything over google. I didn't even know they had an alternate site.
04-16-2011 , 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aabelno
Don't worry: I don't want to pay 90% taxes and have to wait six months for medical care if I get cancer or break my leg.

Also, I don't drink beer and I'm not a big hockey fan.
How you feel about moose meat?
04-16-2011 , 07:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by GODSRAGE
Link to their uk site? Sorry I was unable to find anything over google. I didn't even know they had an alternate site.
fulltiltpoker.co.uk
04-16-2011 , 07:58 PM
anyone for backgammon?
04-16-2011 , 07:59 PM
**Question**

For those of us who are STILL on FT playing real money games in the US (those who haven't logged off yet, and updated therefore the "block") Will we be eventually kicked off anyways when FTP takes their serves down for the weekely update? Is it weekly? not even sure when they do it? Any answers are appreciated. Thanks.
04-16-2011 , 07:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Guido Hatzis
anyone for backgammon?
How about a nice games of chess?
04-16-2011 , 07:59 PM
Over 1 million views......
04-16-2011 , 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Turb0Licious
**Question**

For those of us who are STILL on FT playing real money games in the US (those who haven't logged off yet, and updated therefore the "block") Will we be eventually kicked off anyways when FTP takes their serves down for the weekely update? Is it weekly? not even sure when they do it? Any answers are appreciated. Thanks.
If all your worried about is your ability to logon and play, just get a VPN service that has servers in Europe. There are several providers out there. Average cost is like $8/month and you'll get a European IP address.
04-16-2011 , 08:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved_ltd
Have you never heard of 'trust funds'? The people who control them aren't the owners, they're the trustees. You'd need a financial expert - but I think this is how they're guaranteeing the money is safe.

The 74 accounts are named in the indictment - several of them are international and not US.

But they're not seized,
"restraining orders were issued against more than 75 bank accounts utilized by the Poker Companies and their payment processors ..."
Any of those banks which have had no dealings with US customers have no legal, financial or political reason to comply with what are essentially requests.

but on your last point - American players would probably be wise to play it safe and non-American players might want to limit their liability to online sites.
Here are Pokerstars terms of real money deposits cut from their website. I have bolded for you the important part:

Real Money Transaction Processing and Currency Conversion

The User agrees and acknowledges that:

PokerStars will make reasonable efforts to ensure that deposits and cashouts are processed in a timely manner. We give no warranties regarding the amount of time needed to complete processing. We cannot be held responsible for delays in the banking networks, failures on part of the processor or actions of other parties involved in the processing of funds that may result in processing delays, reprocessing or reversal of transactions or the seizure or freezing of funds, nor will we be liable for any actual or consequential damages arising from any claim of delay or seizure.

As you can see PStars acknowledges that the funds you deposit are at risk of seizure. In this case they may not have been seized, but are likely "frozen". There is no mention of a trust or safe harbor, because there is none. I know you do not know me, but trust me (no pun intended!) these monies are not in any kind of "trust account". They are operating capital to settle player accounts plain and simple.

They also state the following:

PokerStars players' poker money and account balances are held in segregated accounts and not used for any of PokerStars' operational expenses. These segregated accounts are managed by a leading European bank. The arrangements ensure that PokerStars can at all times fulfill its monetary obligations toward its online poker players, and will provide further reassurance that players' funds are always secure with PokerStars.

Please note this says "segregated" accounts, not trust accounts. They indicated they are "managed" not "held in trust". They do not claim they do not own the accounts. They do not claim they do not access these accounts. They do not pay operational expenses out of these accounts, but make no other representation about these accounts except to tell you not to worry. Well if the US has frozen these accounts I would be worried!

Last edited by 1938ford; 04-16-2011 at 08:09 PM.
04-16-2011 , 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bye_stars_tilt
folks,

they confiscated the domain names, not the servers or the databases. the games are still going on as usual. all they did was force the registrar to hand over the domain names. when uncle sam and the fbi knock on your door, you better bend over.
Such a fail. Why the **** would anyone 'bend over' when the feds are reaching beyond their own jurisdiction?

Such cowardice
04-16-2011 , 08:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iplayforweed
90% taxes, obv that's the minimum tax bracket....

beer, hockey, and online poker = winning !!!!

How was your day???
I agree that Aabelno is a bit of a goober, but still it's kind of a crappy thing to come onto a board full of people full of uncertainty and anguish about this situation and brag about how soft the games are up here and how awesome you are for being around to experience all of that.
04-16-2011 , 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved_ltd
I think the point was that online poker is just one element of international trade, you lose money when you import things and you gain money when you export things.

Theory and practice have shown that free trade means that everybody benefits overall - and you damage your economy when you have protectionist and isolationist policies in place.
I have a new level of interest in econ courses. Thanks DoJ
04-16-2011 , 08:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1938ford
or the seizure or freezing of funds, nor will we be liable for any actual or consequential damages arising from any claim of delay or seizure.
gg, bankrolls.
04-16-2011 , 08:04 PM
Time to move to Canada people! We could use some immigrants that don't have to be integrated anyways
04-16-2011 , 08:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by troll_itt
Such a fail. Why the **** would anyone 'bend over' when the feds are reaching beyond their own jurisdiction?
We're talking about a country running an illegal prison in Cuba here.
04-16-2011 , 08:06 PM
What about Bwin and Ongame?? Are they also under investigation??

I reckon they should be......
04-16-2011 , 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by One Voice
Look at it this way if someone worked for you doing labor around the house 40hours a week and when he was paid he simply burnt the money would the Country be worse off? Theoretically all dollars in circulation would have infinitesimal more buying power and we would all be better off. In fact those dollars go over seas but they will return one day as a claim on assets, goods or services. If they never return we gain. Too often politicians and people look at things only from the position of the supplier of labor or a product and this is not the whole equation.
Appropriate avatar: thanks for tossing me that ball for a sec
04-16-2011 , 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1938ford
Maybe its semantics, but I think maybe you are confused about what an asset is. If you make a deposit into a bank (or any financial institution in the US) the monies deposited are no longer yours. They are an asset of the bank. The bank makes promises/assurances to you about how they will try to keep your money safe and available to you should you need it, but, your money is now at risk. Should the bank President steal all of the money, or should the bank lose all its assets in a bad investment your money is gone. That is why the US government created the FDIC to insure depositors against a bank failure.

In the case of one of these companies, just like any bank, they have actual physical control of their depositors monies. Your money. They are not in "trust", no matter what the wording of the "regulations" are. They are operating capital plain and simple. They are used every day to settle up. They pay your debts and add your profits to your line on the balance sheets for your account as you win or lose. If your money is stolen by the Company President, or in this case the US Government, it will be gone. Forever? Who knows? The company may have remaining assets to help settle the claims. They may not. Even if these companies are prohibited by "Regulation" from using or taking player monies "Regulations", like laws only keep honest people honest and certainly do nothing to stop the US Government from trying to impose its own will in the matter.
Yes, my point is that it would require a deliberate act of fraud and a clear violation of their operating license terms for a site to not have all player account funds held seperately in trust. This was in response to users who appeared to believe that all money received or held by a site would count as fair game for seizure by the FBI or repayments to creditors, which is clearly not the case.

Ultimately, without good reason to suspect any site of willful misappropriation of funds, there's no cause for non-US residents to assume their money isn't secure. Hence my caution with regard to UB.
04-16-2011 , 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sixsixtie
[ ] knows anything about canada
[x] knows what Sarah Palin told him about Canada
04-16-2011 , 08:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1938ford
Here are Pokerstars terms of real money deposits cut from their website. I have bolded for you the important part:

Real Money Transaction Processing and Currency Conversion

The User agrees and acknowledges that:

PokerStars will make reasonable efforts to ensure that deposits and cashouts are processed in a timely manner. We give no warranties regarding the amount of time needed to complete processing. We cannot be held responsible for delays in the banking networks, failures on part of the processor or actions of other parties involved in the processing of funds that may result in processing delays, reprocessing or reversal of transactions or the seizure or freezing of funds, nor will we be liable for any actual or consequential damages arising from any claim of delay or seizure.

As you can see PStars acknowledges that the funds you deposit are at risk of seizure. In this case they may not have been seized, but are likely "frozen". There is no mention of a trust or safe harbor, because there is none. I know you do not know me, but trust me (no pun intended!) these monies are not in any kind of "trust account". They are operating capital plain and simple.
touche

The accounts are segregated and protected - but I think I covered it with the fact that in many cases these overseas accounts don't have to comply with a restraining order.

But they might anyway, even if they don't have to.

This bit is largely semantics now anyway - I agreed earlier with your point that players should be exercising caution, I think we're just disagreeing on the exact level of risk and protection.

      
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