Hyperbolic much?

Completely understand your stance on government interference and freedom, but there's no need to lose your **** just because people have a different view than you. It's not pathetic, tragic, or foolish. Every country in the world has laws that one could deem much more "nanny state" than this, and very few of them are tyrannical or totalitarian. Some people believe in a bigger role for government than others do. No big deal. There's a whole spectrum of political beliefs out there, and I've yet to see any evidence that there is one perfect system. Open your mind, and relax.

poker is theoretically

and distinguished from casino gaming

but

spins and cash game cash out? Hopefully the UKGC don't look to deeply into these "innovations".

That's good to know, thank you. Yes, the spins and push/fold games are concerning, for the reasons raidalot said. Also, I think Stars just introduced auto all in sit & gos.

ETA: I don't really see a huge difference between putting £1k on red and buying in for £1k to open shove a 10bb stack. If anything, red is probably a better bet.

+1

This is positive. I'm presuming that this means no house edge and that rake is not a house edge.

Relaxing is the last thing people should do when their rights and freedoms are being TAKEN AWAY from them (and won't be returned).

People probably relaxed their asses off when the communists took over Russia, and then they all starved, and got sent to gulags, and torture chambers, and died or got killed off by the millions. Not to mention having to live ludicrously un-free lives, meaning even the ones who weren't weren't getting much enjoyment out of life either.

I didn't claim that there weren't other countries doing even more severe freedom-destroying stuff than this. Of course there are. North Korea exists, for one thing (not sure it's a great idea to be like "well, we aren't as bad as North Korea YET... so... YIPEEEEEE!!!!" Tshhh. Wow, that really steadies the ole nerves, eh.

And even in their country, itself, (UK) obv they have done even more drastic personal rights/freedom snatch-ups than this already, in recent years.

That doesn't mean that I should just not bother to call out the extreme terribleness of these freedom-ignoring laws whenever yet another one gets put in place. You should NEVER stop fighting for your freedoms. Even if they have started taking the first few of them. FIGHT your ass off to keep as many as you can. To slow the machine down. Don't just lie down and take it. Jesus ****ing christ. This is the most important thing we have as humans, and once it's gone it's gone.

So, sure, people can have other opinions about politics. That's their right (notice how you guys currently seem to be enjoying the fact that you still, just barely, have that right, btw. Which they most definitely WON'T have if all their freedoms get taken away by a super powerful, controlling government, btw... something they might want to keep in mind...). And, likewise, I can have my opinions in the reverse direction, that throwing your rights in the trash is the most foolish and dangerous thing a human being living in a country with a powerful government can do, on a societal level.

If you guys can't understand how important that is, then I definitely think we are completely and utterly doomed. Oh well, I tried. I guess life is going to be a ****ing soulcrushing dystopian hellscape pretty soon. Nice going guys. Way to learn from history. Way to stand up for your ****ing rights. God damn. It'd be one thing if some superpowerful outside military force swooped in and defeated us. Equally shitty way for it all to end, but that would be one thing. But to just WILLINGLY, yawningly hand the most crucial thing in all of existence over like it's nothing, just WILLINGLY toss the whole point of life down a ****ing toilet without even realizing wtf you guys are doing. God that just makes the whole thing so much more nauseating. What an infuriating, idiotic way for liberty and a life worth living as a human on earth, to fizzle out.

Well at least I got to experience a few decades in a (relatively) free country, before all these history ignoring freedom trashing people decided it's time to throw it all away just for shits and giggles, because oh well, who cares. But still, what a giant waste it'll be, of what could've been an incredible future of free people living in a free world, living beautiful lives on a beautiful planet, and exploring the universe around us. Instead, by the looks of it, we'll have all-powerful governments controlling and mandating every microscopic aspect of every waking moment of every person's lives until life is no longer even remotely worth living. What a ****ing waste of a beautiful thing we could've had, as humans. What a ****ing waste.

I mean.. I didn't think I'd have to explain it further.. maybe tax evasion fits better? I mean, it's your money, why would you have to spend it on these pesky taxes?

People who wanna go broke will still be able to, it's not black and white and it's not outrageously low. In Germany, they wanna limit deposits on poker sites to 1000€ a month soon, that's much more ridiculous imo.

@katanasoul

Ironically, this £2 max stake may actually give addicts a bit more freedom from their addiction. It's practically emancipation. I'm being hyberbolic, but you too are being way over the top here.

So because Germany has an even more individual freedoms/rights destroying law coming up, people should just sit back and accept this less bad one.

No, a wrong and a slightly less terrible but still terrible wrong doesn't make a right. It just makes a wrong and a slightly less terrible but still terrible second wrong. Which is bad. Not good.

This is like if some guy walked up to you and blew your arm off with a shotgun, and you were like "Ow! ****!!! Someone grab that guy and call the police that guy just blew my ****ing arm off!!!" And some casual guy leaning back against the wall, smoking a cig, watching the whole thing yawned all relaxed and casual like no big deal and was like "YAWN, I saw some other guy get his head blown off by a guy with a shotgun yesterday. This guy just blew your arm off. That's way less bad. So, you should probably just relax about it. No big deal." That relaxed guy smoking the cig nonchalantly is being an IDIOT, and a total dbag imo. The better reaction would be for him to be like "OH ****!!!! WTF!!! ~dials 911~ SOMEONE GET OVER HERE, SOME GUY JUST BLEW THIS GUY'S ARM OFF, HOLY ****!!!!" That would be a way better reaction to it.

People are being way too chill about their freedoms getting taken away, and what history has shown with 100.0% consistency over gigantic sample sizes of how that plays out every single time. Ever. Always. Always bad. Always ends terribly. Always turns into ****ing totalitarian hellholes, no longer allowed to have any personal freedom at all after a while, no longer allowed to have the "wrong" non state-approved personal opinions about anything anymore, not about politics, not even about art or poetry for that matter. Nothing. Just all state sanctioned hellscape until a giant revolution eventually happens, and millions of gallons of blood are spilled in the process, with a bit of genocide or heaps of human rights violations and infinitely depressing governent automatonish drone-like existence go on for a while between the former and the latter.

These are not things to be trifled with.

FIGHT FOR YOUR FREEDOMS, PEOPLE!!!

I'm not gonna get into this with you as your opinions are so far out there, it really ain't worth it. But just to be clear, historically most humans have GAINED freedoms, not lost them (with certain swings, obviously). Most societies are as liberal as they have ever been. And this is straight up fact and non-debatable.

NVG never fails to deliver these shrewd analogies.

Europe is definitely getting more restrictive of personal freedoms in recent years.

America is still freer than they are, but even we are starting to head in that direction again now.

You are right that people were less free during the USSR, GDR, etc, (obviously, that's the definition of being as un-free as humanly possible, short of full blown slavery) but that should be something to learn from, not cheerfully make a u-turn and start heading back towards.

Man, the subject matter of this thread was already bad, but it's the reactions to it that are truly horrifying.

If the majority of voters in America/Western Europe think the way you guys do, and I think they do, then, I think it's game over. We won't be free people for long. It's ****ed.

This is the most depressing **** I've ever seen. To throw away the greatest thing we've ever had, as human beings, like it's nothing, and not even realize what you are doing. ****ing hell.

Also, with this^^^ right here, you are either being intentionally disingenuous, or you haven't spent even 10 full seconds thinking about that factoid, btw.

Clearly that's taking the entire world, including all the 3rd world with borderline slavery, indentured servitude, women being treated like cattle, sexual slavery, warlords, and all the other horrors going on in large portions of the world until relatively recently, and in some places still going on, as they now shift into their industrial periods, and start experimenting with democracy for the first time, and become wealthier during their first boom phases.

But in this thread we've clearly been discussing the UK in particular, and western Europe and America, and the directions they are headed as they put in these ever increasing new laws over and over, encroaching on personal rights and freedoms more and more with each passing month and year than the previous.

If you honestly think these countries have been giving their populations more personal freedoms than they've been taking away in recent years, you are definitely wrong. And I think you know it. And if you don't, you will pretty soon, because the ever increasing amount of personal freedoms they keep taking away just keeps adding up and not shrinking, so even someone keeping their head in the sand like you are won't be able to ignore it much longer (I think it is ALREADY pretty freaking obvious, thus why I think you are more likely just being intentionally disingenuous here with this, because you seem like a bright guy in that other thread, so I can't imagine you're actually THAT clueless about this).

So, that was definitely baloney, at least in the way you were trying to use it.

If I sound harsh, I mean no offense, since I do like you, overall, and I wish you well.

That said, give me a break, the countries in question here are taking our rights away, not making us freer. And the UK in particular is doing it VERY blatantly and severely in recent years. They are even pushing laws against watching porn, laws where you can get thrown in jail for having the wrong ideological opinions etc, not just merely anti-gambling laws, among other things. They are VERY blatantly going the increasingly anti-freedom route right now, not the other way around. I can't imagine how anyone could possibly not notice that...

The general population mostly agrees with curbs on gambling, in much the same way that they support curbs on other dangerous addictions, like illegal drugs and posting walls of text in NVG.

Yes, the cash pot or trny prize fund isn't a bank and the house doesn't participate in the game, but the problem is that spins and cashout are clearly playing against a bank.

Why are spins playing against a bank? It's more of a lottery, funded by the player buy-ins.

I suppose they might be able to make that argument if it was presented as some sort of progressive jackpot, like video poker, but that clearly doesn't happen and unless it is rigged, stars must, in some time periods, pay out much more than buyins. As I said hopefully the equal chance umbrella isn't investigated too much.

Perhaps an argument could be made that this is no different to an overlay in a guaranteed tournament.

Why do you think these limits are being proposed?
As part of a secret agenda to take away our freedom or as reluctant reaction to pressure from countless bodies concerned at how destructive and damaging to society problem gambling is?
Or are they all in it together?
Or something else?

What they really need to do is ban the advertising of online casinos.
Someone always hits a jackpot in the advert...

Examples?

I get the feeling you've been bottling it all up just waiting for this thread to arrive.

The Human Rights Act which applies in UK and most of Europe (I think) goes a long way to keeping the state's control over personal freedoms in check and is open to the scrutiny of an independent judiciary.
I don't know if there is an American equivalent?

The media in the UK carries plenty of headline grabbing stories about online gamblers who have stole millions to gamble online. This restriction was always going to come up for debate and the online companies have had it coming for a long time. It's not like the warning signs weren't there.

The "freedom" that guy's ranting about is the "freedom" of the bookies/casinos to exploit vulnerable people. They've had multiple chances over the years to self-regulate and they've done no more than pay lip service to the issue. Hard to have any sympathy for them, especially when they're so quick to gub sports/casino accounts that place +ev bets.

At £2 a spin you can still easily blow through £1000 over a few hours. Still plenty of "freedom" there for degens (for now).

If you're going to regulate them, you should also ensure the same rights to limits/activity for winning players as losing players.

And maybe hit sugar while you're at it. 2oz of sugary drinks allowed per hour per citizen would probably have a better impact on society (ignoring the outcry impact).

And while we're on the topic, services for the addicts. People always talk about allowing vs banning gambling, allowing vs banning drugs, allowing vs banning alcohol, but in every case the most vulnerable are going to find a way and it's not treating the actual disease.

+1

I know a guy who has self excluded from all uk online betting sites.

He is broke and in debt because he spends every penny he gets on btc betting sites....

I sympathize with this view, as well as KS who is very concerned about how regulations/crackdowns are impacting both players and the industry.

The regulatory issues with combining alcohol and casino gambling have been brought up multiple times (and discussed in-depth) during monthly Pennsylvania Gaming Control Board meetings.

I recall the December 2018 meeting, when events that transpired at a poker table (inside Mount Airy Casino) prior to a fatal vehicle accident were discussed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp5WJOw5Ra8 [1:37:35-2:09:00]
(shout out to "obnoxious" and "annoying" poker players btw)
---

In September 2018, Downs Racing (d.b.a. Mohegan Sun Pocono) received a $50,000 fine for multiple incidents involving alcohol, and specifically restricted their drink orders to two per hour, per customer. The casino also eliminated "exotic" drinks from their bar (those with a bunch of different types of alcohol, like Long Island iced tea etc).

https://youtu.be/feIRRRfNz2Q?t=5055 [1:24:25-1:42:42]
---

There are so many difficult decisions that regulators and lawmakers get put into due to a small percentage of gamblers (whether through their own fault, the casino's fault, regulator's/lawmaker's fault, or everyone's/nobody's fault) who act extremely irresponsible and in some cases force policymakers to come up with solutions (or at least improvements).

Sometimes these issues create significant discomfort among not only those who are familiar with the industry, but the general public. For example, here's a report I published on the November 2018 PGCB meeting, in which PA casinos as a whole were warned for toddlers (as young as "3 & 5" I believe?) that were being left unattended in parking lots while their parents/guardians slipped into casinos to gamble.

https://www.parttimepoker.com/pennsy...casinos-warned [53:16-1:05:10]

It's such a shame that customers as a class are sometimes burdened by restrictions that result out of events that are isolated to only a few individuals... but the public just doesn't care. For the most part they just want the issue resolved, surveillance improved, "barriers of entry" created, and so on. And who's to blame them really?

Would you believe me if I told you that in the last year or so, there was actually an incident that came up in a PGCB meeting in which a 13 year-old gained access to a casino gaming floor and spent about 30 minutes playing slots before she was discovered?

I'm on my way out but remind me to link/timestamp that later. A 13-year old is absurd... and obviously the casino's executives were asked about this. But it turns out that the 13-year old's guardians (grandparents I believe?) intentionally "hid" her upon entering in a way so security staff didn't see. In other words they camped out around the entrance waiting for an appropriate time to exploit that vulnerability -- they were obviously banned from the casino as a consequence.

Personal freedoms are great... until they start encroaching upon others' freedoms (or pursuit of making it through the day w/o being bothered by nonsense that's completely out of one's control). That's when calls for restrictions/regulations/laws start gaining steam.

-David

LOL that you thought I needed another several hundred word screed where you repeat all the same hyperbole. And that the thread needed a couple more after that. You've already posted a few thousand words on the subject; a couple thousand more isn't going to suddenly convert anybody.

Um, you don't have to go for extremes like North Korea, and that's not what I meant. I didn't think I'd have to spell it out for you, but even in USA#1 you've got many restrictions to your freedom. Seat belt laws. Helmet laws. Abortion laws. Smoking laws. The list is huge. And many people would, and do, fight for some of those restrictions.

Of course you can. But when you choose to express them by carrying on for several lengthy posts in an NVG thread about a proposed UK gaming rule, you turn the thread into a political derail. Of course a thread like this is going to discuss the merits and downfalls of such a regulation, and that will even derail a little into a broader discussion - but you're taking it to a whole other ridiculous level.

This is a neat summary of how you're missing the point. Your assumption that people are just sitting idly by while the government is taking away things they want is insulting, and incorrect. The point you're missing is that a number of people agree with the proposal. They think that, just like seat belt and helmet laws, this is a restriction that is good for society. Your suggestion that just because people don't see this the same way you do, that it means they don't care about their freedom only shows that you're unable to see things from any perspective but your own. In every country in the world - Every. Single. One. - citizens have agreed to give up some of their personal freedoms for the good of society. That's how governments exist.