Baazov sends a message to investors

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/amaya-ceo-acquires-common-shares-123000951.html

very small increase in his current holdings, but still $1.2M of his own cash he forked over to buy the shares.

Seeing that David Baazov has a big stake in Amaya (the Forbes article from last year said 12.5% of the company), that seems like a pretty cheap way to both:

-Change the headline in a new news cycle from a negative Quarterly Earnings Report to a positive one (CEO thinks the current stock price is a good deal!! ).

-Attempt to stem the tide of his net worth plummeting by 9 figures in the past month.

Thanks, will give it a listen. I can't imagine it being extremely insightful though.

Why has he not released one yet? I guess its hard to see the screen with all that money in front of him.

The thread has some gems in it, and valid points. I just don't really understand the "**** multi tablers" its a constant stream of piss being thrown into my face.

At the end of the day, this is poker. Poker is a game that all of us in some way have become connected with, be it recreationally or professionally. I don't understand why you would hate on either group, professionals love the recreational, and the recreational love to aspire to the professionals. The beauty of poker is you can play it how you like, I don't moan at you 1 tablers that hit and run me, and I don't moan at the 100 tablers who play 5% of hands. They are playing how they want to play, and that is fine with me. Change your own actions, don't try to change the actions of others.

Even if you are just a fan this is an awful change, imagine you were a football supporter and you paid for a season ticket (rake) and now they randomly took that away from you and said "we do not need the most loyal supporters" and instead you most pay 40% more a year because we want the ticket sales individually, oh and also the champion leagues games you can't come to. The reason we do this is so we can help those without a season ticket (good VIP status) and we will give away 1 match ticket a year.

You would not hear any other "sport" come across saying they do not need their most loyal supporters. And thats what we are, the SNE are the best paying customers, supporters, fans, players, everything. Professionals generate an income for pokerstars just the same way that professional sport stars generate an income from their sport (ticket sales etc)

obviously, he's not getting the answers he wanted to hear. I think it's unlikely AYA changes anything on the new strategy toward VIPs. If anything, dnegs might get some sort of comp for SNE's who qualifed in 2015. Though no matter what they agree to, I am sure this group will not be satisfied.

This is a recurring argument that imo just doesn't hold up to logic. If I could paraphrase ... "kill the dream and kill poker"

If it were true that the primary motivation of the majority of rec players was to become pro, quit their jobs and live the balla life, then yes these changes will kill poker.

Though i have no data to point to, my sense is the majority of rec players are not playing with aspirations of becoming pro and play for a wide variety of other reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with their long-term winrates or % of rakeback.

If long term win rate was a requirement for rec players, poker would have never existed.

another logic flaw that comes up regularly. High volume players have more sof a parasitic relationship with the site. Back in the day of unlimited liquidity and money pouring into the game things were different. Not so anymore due to #1 stupid govt regulations #2 other things and stuff.


Yes, the changes are awful for a small segment of their customers. A customer segment that they believe no longer provide the benefit they once did. I am not sure it sucks more for current SNEs are the legions of players who have poured their souls into the game the past year or two and were just about to break through. I feel bad for these players but markets evolve and change, and the writing has been on the wall for awhile.

I am not high volume player and never will be. I am a business person and rec poker player, and looking at this from those two perspectives.

Oher then the argument that SNGs >$30 will dry up, I've yet to read any articulate arguments that seem to hold water as to why these changes are bad for AYA and/or Rec players.

current contenders...

1) trickle down... meh seen arguments on both sides,

2) kill the dream... discussed above

3) cash games >NL400 dry up.... OK is that the end of the world?

4) It's just an AYA moneygrab ... maybe, but its their sandbox and I don't understand why they would take actions to knowingly poop in it

5) AYA is dumb and don't know what they are doing ... matter of opinion but I'll say prob not. they have ALL the data, we have virtually none.

Did I miss any?

thread could use a few more PTLou posts summarising how the changes are good for AYA and not necessarily bad for all recreational poker players. His other 80+ posts saying the same thing are clearly insufficient.

Lou,

With regards to 2) - kill the dream. The dream isn't for most Recs to become the Pros, it's more like any other professional/rec relationship. The recs look up to, admire and follow the Pros - this is why Full Tilt did so well and DNEGs and Ronaldo are payed so handsomely - it works. So, if Amaya has diminished the PokerStars brand in the eyes of the pros, then it will hurt their bottom line. Through word of mouth, through social media/internets/etc. I for one will not be telling anyone to play on PokerStars. There are many better options out there right now for recs and regs alike.

This whole thing has been a major mess up for them. It also appears to be just one in a string of mistakes. Ongame, FT, Canadian Insider Trading. It's true that they have managed to make money up to this point, but that really is the easy part, and at what cost to their reputation? Would you buy a company from them? The difficult part for a morally bankrupt shell is to keep up the illusion of morality to the outside observers just enough to not completely implode.

Can they do it? I dunno, but PokerStars was the overwhelming chip leader in this tournament and while they still hold the lead, it's clearly been dwindling, and we're left to wonder why they suddenly began auto mucking every hand. Are they out to lunch? In over their heads and playing scared now? Have they left the game for good?

I don't think so, I think they'll be back, but the online poker landscape will have changed by then.

Ignore list works well, not sure at this point why would anyone still waste their time w/o skipping his valuable input.
p.s. But then again, im being a retrd here just feeding the troll once again.

There's a big difference on the impact of 'killing the dream' between the low stakes pros and the high stakes pros.

Nobody important to the market ever dreamed of being a low stakes pro; its a temporary arb, not the guiding vision.

Truth be told, I've posted little on why these changes are good for AYA. Majority of my posts are questioning other posters logic on why these changes are bad for AYA or Recs. Pretty important distinction.

Those are summarized above and up to this point are collectively pretty weak.

Mostly true and all valid. Thanks for reminding me of that. I'll refine a cliff notes on pros / cons.



Arguments against changes from the perspective of AYA and/or recs that seem to have merit and are material:

1) SNG > $30 die

2) This is a major marketing blunder on the lines of "New Coke" that will damage AYA shareholder value, reduce number of new players they acquire, and as a result damage poker (as they have 70+% share)



Ones that are inconlusive:

1) trickle down... meh seen arguments on both sides,

2) kill the dream... related to above

3) cash games >NL400 dry up.... OK is that the end of the world?

4) It's just an AYA moneygrab ... maybe, but its their sandbox and I don't understand why they would take actions to knowingly poop in it

5) AYA is dumb and don't know what they are doing ... matter of opinion but I'll say prob not. they have ALL the data, we have virtually none.

I think all of it is fairly obvious why you're wrong on all five accounts but I'll just take the easy two instead of trying to write a bunch to get through to a rock.

1) What in the world is the argument against this? Do you think players 1) are going to be able to hit a heater enough to go to high stakes from micros in a period of time that will encourage others or 2) 5/10+ players moving down to crush players that are at a high disparity in skill levels is a good thing?

3) Jesus ****ing christ. You just lose all credibility with that garbage. Not all fish want to play low, either.

I wrote more than you're worth.

It doesn't have to be anywhere near a majority. If 20% of net depositor's primary reason for playing is to pursue poker as income that's about all you need because those are exactly the players who will be pushing themselves too soon on too many tables and will have false start after false start, likely going busto multiple times. Most, the vast majority in todays games, won't make it.

The average player, according to Dnegs, deposits $20 (no idea if that's yearly, lifetime, per deposit or what). I can name, but won't, a great many players who I know for a fact have deposited thousands of dollars, all of whom play >500 hands/hr. Online poker in 2015 is hard, it takes a long long time to even become good enough to break even in a lot of games today.

The length of this road almost can't be overstated nor can the quantity of carcasses that litter its margins. I'm loathe to make any kind of ad hominem argument but it would be difficult for someone who doesn't grind stars cash games to really appreciate what this means. Again, if 15-20% (possibly much less depending on multiple of average tables played vs strict recs) of net depositors fit this bill you're in bad shape. Their raison d'etre is profit or the promise thereof. Take it away and they're gone.

How many recs think they have a long term win rate, at least given certain conditions? I would like to know that, I suspect its comically high if not a majority. Why do those lost souls believe such an obvious untruth? Even the most pathological slots player usually knows the casino wins in the long run. Again, the slot head's poker playing counterpart represents a completely different cohort.

Speaking of weak arguments. If your point is that "things are different" regarding the fundamental business model, the foregoing fails to convince. Keep in mind we are talking about a company risking billions of dollars here, I hope their merry prognostications are drawn from deeper wells than that.

Which segues into...

They're not dumb. They're in thrall to the tunnel vision of a charismatic leader who has made them (the one's we're talking about anyway) millionaires. How fervently would you be willing to question a boss who has made you richer than would be polite to mention and keeps stacking stacks on top of your stacks, quarter after quarter?

Well Mr Run It Up, let me ask you this. What % of total deposits into PokerStars currently ends up in games above NL400?

If you don't know the answer to that or can't present an educated estimate, then you are simply talking out of your arse hole.

And now a word from our Sponsor

Two articles take somewhat opposing views on the effect of the changes.

http://www.onlinepokerreport.com/18736/pokerstars-vip-changes-impact/


http://www.onlinepokerreport.com/18761/how-valid-is-pokerstars-changes-criticism/

Dont know either author, and will just assume they both have sufficient creds as journalists to analyze and discuss

Lou I've defended you previously in this thread but now I think you are just trolling. These "opinion pieces" have been picked apart point by point as the garbage they are. This happened in the sister thread of this one which is in Internet poker which you are surely aware of.

Edit: one of the links wasn't brought up previously but LOOOOL as soon as i saw "Moving on, I can see the turbo sngs experiencing a small liquidity uptick" i stopped reading. There is no fn way

1st time since joining 2+2 I have decided to make use of the ignore user function. It's a wonderful thing!

I appreciate that and yes I am aware of Internet Poker forum, but I rarely read it. I see that as more a high volume players-only thread, and was hoping this one would have more of a balanced perspective.

As much as this thread is one sided, that one is assume even more so (if possible).

Also, I thought one of these articles was actually supporting some of the arguments ITT against the changes , but perhaps I mis-interpreted.

That all being said, I do respect your opinion and will do my best to not post ITT until I am no longer atop the leaderboard in # of posts I'm up by a wide margin, so that could take a while

I left university, quit my job and prepared to grind out super nova elite next year. Since the news I fell into a deep depression. The news hit me just as I was going through my worst downswing of my life and I'm almost broke and could be homeless very soon. My hair is falling out from the stress this news has brought me. I haven't brushed my teeth since this reveal and I just don't care anymore. My dreams were crushed and I have nothing to live for anymore. I offered to pay you 100k USD in rake and supply the better regs with some profit, but instead you decide to take my life from me. Thank you Amaya.

R.1.P Poker 2015

.

Yeah dude but something something poker ecology, rec happiness, the ave deposit is lost 40% quicker, PTLou hearts David Jerkov, 200 milly profit per annum not enough, hud and software misdirection and giving back to the casual depositors and so on and so forth

Didn't you just start a thread about grinding NL10. That's a solid grind

yes but they killed his dream
the troll is strong with him, grind he has

+1

This message is hidden because PTLou is on your ignore list.

Well have to wait and see

Thats the problem with your ideas on the matter, is that you (nore me) have any data that actually proves one way or the other. I very much doubt people play poker because they enjoy losing, and I know for a fact that everyone I know, including myself. Only got into poker with the dream of making money or playing for a living. That includes recreational players that eventually quit or whatever. Noone joins poker and goes "oh this game is fun, I lose losing money" They play to MAKE money.

I believe the majority of rec players aspire to become pro, or to at least be able to beat the games, and become semi-pro. So kill the dream, kill poker stands.

The problem is that rec players don't even understand long term winrates or % of rb, or variance or anything. So this is an invalid point, when I started poker, I want to become pro. I had zero idea about rb and long term winrates. I just wanted to win everyday.



Its not a logic flaw, its fact. if someone rakes $100,000 a year and pays gets 60% back, they pay $40,000 and that is more than most recs will ever pay in their lifetime.

The problem that I've seen is that winning players take out $, and not enough recs to deposit more. The problem is you have different groups of people.

1. Professionals , that take out money
2. semi-pros, that either take out money or breakeven
3. losing players, that deposit money

you kind of move up, you all start at #3, and move to #2 then #1, or stay at #3, #2 etc.etc. By taking away SNE and whatever else, doesn't actually change anything. Losing players, still lose. Winners still win, and people in group #2 either become losers or winners, and most quit. Now you have the same amount of depositors and the same/more professionals taking their money, at a quicker rate.



I'm one of those players that is "just about to break through" and it sucks pretty hard for me, and I know someone who is making SNE for the first time this year, and it sucks super hard for him.

SNGs >$30 won't even dry up. They will become softer imo, so many regs will leave that the ones staying will have more fish to eat. Spin n goes are already showing this, the games are softer. but i cba to discuss that.

1) Trickle down affect will happen, but I don't think its actually a big problem.
2) discussed
3) >NL400 games drying up is potentially the end of the world, but this is like point #1. why do you think people love isildur1 so much? Because he won loads at NL400? No..
4) This point is to long for me to discuss atm
5) Same as #4 and I also don't care enough


At the end of the day, my points could all be perfect or all be complete ****. I will spend most of my time improving and less time on these matters, The worst comes to it I move sites and I will always beat a certain limit.. See you all at NL10k

What? Games are softer compared to when? Have you seen $100 lobbies lately? It's a bloodbath.