I posted this last week in the "Leatherass in the well" thread on the CR/Stox forum and even though there must be loads of CR/Stox/other training site coaches reading it, no-one of them tried to refute it, even LA himself didn't.

The games have gotten progressively tougher and the once plentiful pool of fish have been taken over by regs and regtards. Here's the argument that I posted in that thread, do you agree with me that poker training sites are the worst thing to happen to online poker apart from the UIEGA?


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The games ARE getting tougher and will keep getting less and less profitable, as they have been consistenly for the last 3 years. It's a common fact that you will see players who were big winners 5/10 and 10/20 a couple of years ago grinding it out at 1/2 and 2/4 - that fact alone means the games have got tougher and the situation IS creating problems for players. Go and say 'games are tougher? so what' to one of these guys...I dont mind admitting that I would probably be one of these players if I still played poker professionally, however I decided to get off the sinking ship and return to college.

Summer of 2006, every single 5/10 game consisted of 1-2 regs and 4 or 5 fish. It's gotten progressively worse to the point now where 1 fish has to be shared among 5 regs, that's a massive change. And never mind the fish, you used to encounter at least 1 certifiable maniac a day who was gonna be good for at least a stack. The maniacs have all but disappeared now and you're lucky if you spot one once a month.

It makes me laugh the way CR, stox and the rest all talk as if they really care about their subscribers and how they can help them win alot of money when in reality the opposite is true - discounting the UIEGA legislation, the proliferation of the poker training sites has had the biggest impact by far on the toughening of the games and the massively decreased profitability right across the board, and it's only gonna get worse.

Every donkey these days is signed up to a training site, and while there are lots of them still losing, obviously, they are losing it much much slower. I personally know of several guys, as Im sure everyone else does, who were complete clueless gamblers and would never have figured out how to stop haemorraging money hand over fist on poker, and would have done so for many years as degenerates have always done down the years. The difference is now these former clueless gamblers have been educated and they are the regs sitting beside you at the table. These are the guys who used to play 37/10/1 and now they are playing 18/15/3. They might still be losing but now its closer to trying to get water from a stone whereas before playing them was like squeezing a wet sponge! One incident that stuck with me and highlighted the change in the games was when I was watching my bro play some low stakes, prob .5/1 or 1/2, and I saw a one tabling donk fold QQ preflop when he 3bet someone and then they went all in --- QQ in this situation for such a player used to be the stone cold nuts, I wouldn't have believed this guy could've folded QQ here but he did and he showed 'em.

The best thing the training sites could do if they wanted to help online poker players, is to shut down and delete all their videos and maybe in a couple of years the poker economy will pick up again as the number of fish increase. Obviously that's never gonna happen and the training sites will go on 'helping' their members lol.

Id also like to add that Im also member of a small regional poker forum and the same guys who I used to be rolling my eyes at, basically clueless gamblers blowing their weeks wages and who'd never even heard of terms like pot control, value bet, equity are now ALL using pokertracker and signed up to at least 1 training site and know all the poker terminology out there and will run detailed poker stove equity calculations as standard. Its a sad state of affairs tbh but these are the fish that we used to rape unmercifully and they have now evolved into the regs/regtards we see today - thanks alot poker training sites!

And if it's true?

All of this would be counteracted if the US would do a 180 on its stance on online poker. Embrace online poker, lift restrictions and place reasonable regulations (to ensure fairness), and it'll be a lot easier for the fish to deposit money on a whim and play for a few hours.

Here are a few ro*******s to a random gambler playing online poker

1) "Online poker is teh illegal! I don't want to go to jail."
2) They need to find a site that accepts US players
3) They need to find a way to deposit funds on that site. Depending on method, this may include a waiting period

If the US "legalizes" and regulates online poker and lifts restrictions on deposit methods, all three of these ro*******s will be removed, and you'll see far more random people depositing 100 bucks, and sitting down at a NL100 table with their entire roll.

Edit: WTF? "R0adbl0cks" is censored?

Training sites are horrible if youre lazy like me and refuse to work at getting any better, but if you can spare a few hours a week to make $$$, then theyre great.

Trainer sites are terrible for online poker's longevity, yes. This is obviously true.

win win for the sites because of the rake.

Sad, but true.

OMFG SKY IS FALLING!

never thought that maybe you suck @ poker?

When it comes to advice about poker, my attitude is very simple: seek it out, absorb it, but while you’re at the table, forget it.

I’m a firm believer in learning the game by playing the game. I’m not saying there aren’t a lot of great resources around to help players improve their games or that poker books and tutorials don’t have their place. They do. However, the problem I see with people who rely on these kinds of aids is that they end up playing poker like someone else or - even worse - like everyone else.

One of the things that makes poker great is that it’s a game where there’s really no right or wrong way to play. Every player has their own approach to the game and the key, in my opinion, is to take the things you learn from other players and incorporate them into a style of play that works for you.

There are some players who take a very mathematical approach to the game, and for them, it works. They study the odds and make decisions based on whether they think they’re getting the right price to commit their chips to a pot. It’s a solid way to play, but the fact is, it’s not the right approach for everyone. What’s more, even the best of these players will tell you that math only takes you so far.

Calculating the odds can certainly help you decide whether you’re making a smart move, but it doesn’t take into account who you’re playing against. There are many times when you can do all of the math you want and your decision still comes down to intangibles and a feeling about your opponent or the situation you’re facing. Does this guy have a hand? Can I push him off the pot? Am I getting myself into trouble here? Even if the odds say you should play, your gut may be telling you something else, and that’s something you can only develop by playing.

Relying too much on other peoples’ advice can actually make it harder to develop this kind of reading ability because it tends to clutter up your head. You get so focused on thinking about odds, probabilities and strategies that you forget that you’re playing against someone else and that you have to try and figure out what he or she is doing. Are they scared? Will they fold to pressure? Are they a maniac? In my opinion, these are the important things to keep in mind during a hand.

It’s been said before, but it bears repeating. Poker isn’t about the cards; it’s about the players and the situations. Winning players understand that sometimes you have to take chances. Sometimes they work and other times they don’t. Whether you win the hand or not, you have to make the play that you believe is best.

At the end of a hand or a session, go back and study the things you did well and be honest with yourself about where you made mistakes. Don’t, however, overanalyze how you could have played a hand differently because this can negatively impact how you approach your next hand or session. Identify your mistakes, learn from them, and move on. Just because some play or move didn’t work the way you wanted doesn’t mean you were wrong to try it. As I said before, there are just some things that you have to learn by playing.

So here’s my advice. Read this tip. Read other tips and poker books. Talk to your friends. Absorb as much information as you can. But at the end of the day you have to trust your instincts and play your own game – not someone else’s.

Phil Ivey

so you cant beat the regs huh

case sensitive, at least give ivey his credit

nice copy & paste off the internetz

that was phil ivey

Also these threads carry as much truth as saying that global warming kills polar bears, but hey if this gibberish persuades some would-be sharks to find different hobbies then it can't hurt to create "poker is dying" topics every week.

and what did you do to that cat in your avatar?!?!?!?!

Following the poker boom it's kind of a natural outcome that while the game has become progressively more popular it has also developed into a big industry and other profit-making enterprises have grown up around it.

When you hear a Doyle Brunson or a Johnny Moss talk about how much the game has changed over the years, however, they're not just talking about the popularity of poker, television, or the Internet. They're talking about the style of play. If you equate a large number of TAG players at your table with difficulty (the OP seems to), then the games before the poker boom were much harder than the games now.

Top players played profitably then and top players are playing profitably now. If we're going to play this game, one of the things we have to accept is that the face of it is always changing. The strategy you developed in 2000 when it seemed like the tables were overflowing with new and unskilled players may not work any more. The solution, however, isn't to argue against the training sites (it's futile -- they're not going anywhere). The thing to do is to develop a new strategy, or at least to tweak your old one.

Some arguments in favor of the training sites:

+ They keep players involved in the game who might otherwise have given up after an early, unprofitable run,

+ While it may be true that they sharpen the competition at the lower stakes, they also serve as a vehicle for feeding players into the bigger games, and

+ They help to create and maintain the notion that poker has become a reputable industry, which is especially important given the legal situation in the U.S.

Finally, I used to be so reluctant to discuss strategy or try to help other players that I wouldn't even participate in forums like this one. My reason was essentially the same as the one the OP provides against the training sites -- I was afraid of creating stronger opponents. But I've learned two things in this regard:

(1) When I try to analyze what other players are doing and give them advice (as in the strategy forums), it actually sharpens my own thinking and play, and

(2) A large number of bad players stubbornly stick to their own style regardless of what resources are available. They believe they already know it all and any bad runs are just the result of variance. These types of players will never improve, no matter how many poker training programs are made available to them.

Similarly, while there may be a process now by which many players are constantly improving the way they play, there will always be new players, people who enjoy the game as a hobby but don't worry much about profitability, and players who fail to adjust to changes in the way people are playing the game.

The other thing I think is happening is that while Hold 'Em players are potentially better than they were after everyone saw Rounders and went running to the card rooms, many of these same players are just beginning to learn games like Omaha, Stud, or Triple Draw. So if you make a quick study of these games now and get in while the action is still soft, you could potentially be making a lot of money playing PLO or mixed games.

ther the worst thing to happen to poker including UIGEA.

the real question is why are you wasting time whining instead of getting better

video sites are sell outs bottom line. They 're "selling the magicians tricks" and the only way to stop it is to record and post the videos for free. If someone dosent do this the games will be dead by the end of 2009.

And for the people saying "you can't beat the regs", who wants to grind .50/$1 for 2pt/bb and have that considered to be a good win rate.

QFT


Also, there are a few reasons why poker is harder and training sites are not even in the top 3.


1. Internet gaming bill
2. The fad of poker is slowing
3. Those who have hung around alteast know a bit more about how
to play then they did a few years ago.


I have beaten small stakes for a long time now with now real desire to move up. The games are a bit tougher on you win rate, but not in level of toughness. People are just more tightish passive. There are a few 60/40/5 people left, but not like there was a few years ago.

It is tough to get money online so people "protect" the money by being passive.

Most players on Poker Stars don't even know what CR etc. even is.

Out of those who have watched it, some misplay many hands that they see CTS and others doing at 10/20+.

Those grinders who have figured out there game and ways to exploit the game were getting better already. If CR and all others didnt exist. We still look at PT and 2p2. We work on our game and retool as needed.

You can't slow progress. That is life. Those who decide to waste their time complaining will fade away.

Also, you can't close these sites anyways.

/thread

While training sites may make games harder, many fish just went away. 3 years ago, 80% of my friends played online poker. Now I am the only one the plays EVER. Some of them even still have money on Stars and such and just have no interest to play.

We used to have regular home poker games monthly and had to stop because it was getting harder and harder to get even 8 players. People have just lost interest.

For sure its cannabalizing the game, but why would they care there in it to make money.

Taylor Caby and Brian both at the top of their game started making training videos, think about that the two guys at the top of their feild started it. To me it was pretty obvious they saw what was happening to poker and wanted to make sure they cashed in. Pretty sad imo.

uh, he is still a fish. just one that needs to be exploited differently than his former self.