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Old 10-14-2010, 05:24 PM   #1
Michael
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Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

What do Kobe Bryant and Doyle Brunson have in common?.....They are both Professional Athletes!

I looked into the idea of forming a State of California vocational school for the profession of Professional Poker Player. I have developed and obtained state approval for four vocational schools in the field of paralegal in the past. Vocational schools in California cover hundreds of vocations such as paralegals, truck drivers, barbers, and even casino card dealers. A legal vocational diploma can be granted from state approved vocational schools. All that is needed to obtain state approval is a profession defined by the federal government and listed in their Occupational Code Assignment (the OCA), this use to be called the Federal Dictionary of Occupational Titles.

I quickly found out that there was no such federal listing for Professional Poker Player. Listed under amusement & recreation were “Gambling Monitor” code #343.367-014, “Gambling Dealer” code #343.464-010, “Card Room Attendant I (chip person) code #343.467-010 and “Card Player” (prop player employed by a casino) code 343.367.010. There was no title or code for a person whose sole source of income was as a self-employed professional poker player.

I submitted an application to the United States Department of Labor, Employment and Training Administration, to define the vocation of Professional Poker Player and to have an appropriate code number assigned. I had to supply information on fifteen areas for their approval process. These fifteen areas are: Name of Occupation; Purpose of Occupation; Occupational Tasks; Work Activities; Interactions with other people; Physical Activities; Skills needed; Knowledge Areas; Educational Preparation; Training/Experience; Any Machines, Equipment, Tools, and Software; Products(s)/Services delivered; Primary Industry occupation is found; Any web sites/Resources about the occupation can be found (I did list Card Player); and the reason why I want this occupational code assignment.

I submitted information on all these areas. I would like to mention I did seek input form several well-known individuals in the poker world and not one wished to provide any input or to get involved. I was left to define this profession on my own. After several back-and-forth e-mails with the government analyst assigned to evaluate my request, it was submitted to their committee and approved. It was approved under the occupational title of “Athletes and Sports Competitors” code #27-2021.00. The definition of a Professional Poker Player is:

“Participates in competitive poker events, such as single table games and multiple table tournaments as his full-time occupation. Plays poker and engages in game conforming to established rules, betting, and regulations. Appraises each poker table or poker tournament as to the skill of other players. Keeps track of other poker player’s skill and betting habits. Has knowledge of poker-hand probabilities and bets accordingly. Has knowledge of poker playing money management. Interacts with other poker players at gaming tables or tournaments. Plays poker at single tables up to 12 hours a day or tournaments lasting for days. Must have the physical and mental endurance to concentrate for long hours of play. Must have the mathematical skills of poker strategy and probabilities. Must have the psychological skills to ‘read’ other poker players. Must have the ‘poker feel’ of knowing who and when to ‘bluff.’ Must have the knowledge of the rules of the poker game he is playing.

So, this is why Kobe Bryant and Doyle Brunson have something in common….they are both professional athletes. Doyle, if you are reading this we all know of your great disappointment in not being able to play professional basketball because of a leg injury. You are now a professional athlete. Ready to see your face on a box of Wheaties?

To see the code listing go to the following site:

http://online.onetcenter.org
In Occupation Quick Search type in Professional Poker Player
Hit the blue “100” left of Athletes & Sport Competitors
See Professional Poker Player
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:32 PM   #2
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

I would have worked in that poker pros "provide entertainment" as well.

Last edited by tomdig; 10-14-2010 at 05:40 PM.
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:40 PM   #3
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Interesting. Are you going to follow through and open up a poker school, if so what is your idea of how that will work and how much would it cost?
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:44 PM   #4
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

http://online.onetcenter.org/link/summary/27-2021.00

There will be "professional poker players" looking for a job all over the internet soon.
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:47 PM   #5
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Here's what Jim Rome thinks of poker being called a sport, pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KgXV...eature=related
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Old 10-14-2010, 05:50 PM   #6
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Does this mean if I fire myself or go busto I get unemployment?
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:38 PM   #7
OMG its LUCKBOX
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozzytiger View Post
Here's what Jim Rome thinks of poker being called a sport, pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KgXV...eature=related
This is fantastic.
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Old 10-14-2010, 06:45 PM   #8
KiD CuDi
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Lol poker isn't a sport... It's a game. This is really just about the definition of the word sport though.
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Old 10-14-2010, 09:33 PM   #9
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

the billy baxter of our time
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Old 10-14-2010, 11:14 PM   #10
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Interesting. Are there any implications of this beyond OP's vocational school? (For that matter, what are the implications of OP's vocational school?)
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Old 10-15-2010, 12:12 AM   #11
Michael
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

In response to the question of any other ramifications of this DOL code there can be. A vocational diploma could give you credibility to the IRS that this is your profession for tax purposes. Also, it may be a legal right you have to practice your vocation in a state that prohibits it, say on the Internet. Michael, original poster
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Old 10-15-2010, 12:56 AM   #12
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

"Bellying up to the felt, and check raising a feeler bet on the turn..."
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Old 10-15-2010, 01:11 AM   #13
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Hilarious and awesome
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Old 10-15-2010, 01:42 AM   #14
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

I'm a professional athlete
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Old 10-15-2010, 01:57 AM   #15
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

I just took a look at my stomach. Beat: I'm not an athlete.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

At least OP's school's placement office will have no trouble finding the graduates 'jobs'.
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:10 PM   #16
Michael
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Update:Pro Poker Player & Federal Agencies

Update on Revised Pro Poker Player Definition & DOL Code

Refer to my Oct 10, 2010 2+2 posting titled: “Poker is a Sport According to the Dept. of Labor”. Also refer to this website to see the code listing:

http://online.onetcenter.org/find/sc...poker%20player

I have the needed vocational code and definition for Professional Poker Player (PPP) from O*NET (Occupational Information Network) to start a vocational school in California. But, O*NET is only a single federal agency concerned with the classification, definition, and codification of employment occupations in this country. I have spent the last two weeks talking to various federal agencies (O*NET, SOC, BOLS, NAOCS, IRS), people in the poker field, and the Poker’s Player Alliance relating to them the political benefits of having PPP recognized as a vocation within the various government agencies. As it turns out, PPP’s are really an invisible group to the above federal agencies. Even the IRS does not have a specific occupational title for PPP or “gambler”. In 2005 I asked the IRS statistics branch as to how many people list PPP or gambler as their occupation on their income tax returns. At that time they gave me an approximate number of 204 returns based upon 1999 data. I asked them this same question this week and now they have no number because they do not have an SOC number for the occupation of PPP or gambler. The SOC is Standard Occupational Classification System within the BLS (Bureau of Labor Statistics). The SOC system is comprised of 23 major occupation groups with 821 detailed occupations and is the main data used by all the other government agencies for occupational definitions and classifications. Even the Census Bureau uses the SOC system. So, I have processed an application with the SOC/BLS for PPP using the definition in my 2+2 posting with two major additions. I included the Internet as a place where a PPP earns a living and also a compliance with all IRS filing requirements for this self-employed occupation. The SOC section this will go in is “Athletes and Sports Competitors”. Within this classification are professional golfers, jockeys, boxers, tennis players, etc. Ten government agencies meet on a quarterly basis to review new SOC occupation applications. PPP is up for their next review. The analyst I have been working with in the SOC has been very helpful and she feels the elements of the PPP application is sound. Obtaining an SOC classification for PPP is important for social and political reasons. An SOC classification will lay a legal foundation for PPP as a recognized vocation on local, state, and federal levels. It would be difficult for any state to disallow a PPP to work in his/her legitimate trade….even on the Internet.

I did make an attempt to solicit input from various people in the poker field in the development of an expanded PPP definition but ended up doing the above alone. I did think of throwing it out to the 2+2 community for some constructive input and if you would like to give some comments it is not too late to amend my application prior to the SOC committee meeting. Seven of the nine WSOP finalists list their occupation as Professional Poker Player (Bluff Magazine September 2010). I’m sure there are now thousands of individuals around the world calling themselves Professional Poker Players. So, what are the specific job elements/functions of a Professional Poker Player? Please be constructive if you reply. Thanks. Michael
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Old 10-29-2010, 06:42 PM   #17
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bozzytiger View Post
Here's what Jim Rome thinks of poker being called a sport, pretty funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KgXV...eature=related
qfcrushingbeersandlightingrocketsoffoneafteranothe r
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Old 10-30-2010, 02:45 AM   #18
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

A couple of thoughts as to things you might mention:

Interaction with dealers/casino employees (i.e. general socialization and tipping).

Generating rake to help keep casinos in business

P.S. You might have more luck posting in the legal forums instead of NVG.
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Old 10-30-2010, 04:19 AM   #19
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

this is pretty cool

+1 to the idea of including 'providing entertainment' as something a PPP contributes.

and yeah you might find even more constructive comments by crossposting this in Poker Legislation
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Old 10-30-2010, 04:43 AM   #20
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

All sounds pretty limited to tournament play. Obviously, this is not the only way (and questionably not the best way either) to be a 'professional poker player'. Should any attention be paid in the definition to ring/side games? I can see how from a political perspective/on paper it may be better to limit it to tournaments, but figured it was worth mentioning regardless. Apologies if this was already brought up.
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Old 10-30-2010, 04:49 AM   #21
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Also think this could use some work:

Quote:
Must have the psychological skills to ‘read’ other poker players. Must have the ‘poker feel’ of knowing who and when to ‘bluff.’
Something like-

Must have the psychological fortitude, temperament and analytical skills associated with making profitable decisions during game play (e.g knowing who, when and how to 'call', 'raise', or 'fold' as the situation warrants).

[or if you want to keep the bluffing line, just change the e.g part to "(e.g "knowing who, when, and how to 'bluff', as the situation warrants), or something along those lines, IMO. ]
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Old 10-30-2010, 03:20 PM   #22
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Wow. The world has really changed hasn't it? Well it does sound nice being called an athlete. Lol
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Old 10-30-2010, 03:39 PM   #23
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

Poker is a game, not a sport. I mean, Poker is a sport, not a....alright I give up.
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:02 PM   #24
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Re: Poker is a Sport According to Dept of Labor

I can rightfully call myself a "professional athlete" now.. woot
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Old 10-30-2010, 05:17 PM   #25
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Re: Update:Pro Poker Player & Federal Agencies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael View Post
An SOC classification will lay a legal foundation for PPP as a recognized vocation on local, state, and federal levels. It would be difficult for any state to disallow a PPP to work in his/her legitimate trade….even on the Internet.
Is this speculation on your part or does the SOC actually imply some sort of legal recognition of the lawfulness of the occupation? If somebody actually decided to do so would it not be possible to get an SOC classification for "Professional Bank Robber" for instance?
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