Kilowatt and The_Jackal are right

the biggest problem with RIO is that they call it "rake back"

The proper term is "rake returned"

Thank you

Kilowatt

For solving

All

The

Problems

.

Since renaming it as rake returned RIO traffic has spiked 11000% overnight with regs cancelling the lawsuit that cash was not directly paid into their accounts. Online poker is saved.

Doesn't definition of a word depend on how people actually use and understand it? If the usage of the word changes over time even the dictionaries adjust.

Last time I checked there was no dictionary definition of a word rakeback, and 90% of people ITT are ok with calling STP rakeback scheme, so please accept that the word rakeback doesn't mean exclusively what you personaly believe it should mean.

most people are fine calling STP a rakeback scheme. period.

also notice that it's different from some kind of promotions which usually don't affect all players and are more a way of redistributing the rake while STP is a more classical rakeback where everyone get's his share on average.

I can’t see how Phil wins this.

People would rather open chests or be forced to grind x amount of hands just to pay more rake than they would at RIO.
And why? Because cash games now have a “spin and go” element. Which is actually what attracts recs!
And fights bots! With solvers and better tech cash games are going the way of the dodo. STP is the way forward.

But not much traffic, and the launch was full of bugs. If RIO launched with this level of functionality I think it could’ve been much more successful.

I don’t feel like the RIO team communicate their 80% rake back promos very well either. The first I heard of it was when I signed onto the client after the update. Who’s going to say no to 1.2% rake? bUt oNlY iF yOu wIn SplaShEd pOts

RIO are certainly doing the right thing with the 81% rakeback to try to bring in new players but I don't think it'll be enough. I don't think people will move their roll to the site because rakeback is increased a few times per week. The best thing they could do imo is take a short term hit for long term gain by offering 100% rakeback for an entire month. 51% STP and the rest as direct rakeback.

I agree that a 'Supernova' type VIP system is a must, but it should it should resemble more the GG model bc a str8 'supernova' system just attracts nit regs witch the site should not cater to. There is a fragile ecosystem that must be maintained. Something along the lines of ppl who deposit can get better rakeback. I also think the rakeback/deposit bonuses should be better for the recs and worse for the crushers bc if you leave it up to the players they will always chase the highest EV regardless of what is good for the site long term.

A table starter rakeback could be good aswell to get things going.

Now Phil if you are able to implement some good elements without it taking 6 months and not srewing it up things 'might get interesting. I do not want to be negative but the site launched very late after its due date and still was of poor quality, leaving a first impression of slow incompetence is def not the way to go, and no 3 page post/essay will excuse that.

You promoting/playing on the site could generate some interest and further solidify your role as the face of the company.

rant/

How is a table starter rakeback gonna work if only 10 ppl are playing ?

This is what WPX network did back in the day. Obviously steal a big piece of the player pool(or attempt to).

The problem though is this will attract mainly regs. Advertisement and affiliate marketing has to be done too. Outsourcing the rake back to affiliate programs is an easy solution.

Build that player pool!

10 buyin splash pot. everyone went all in, of course the Q5o won the 15 buyins. good sweat though.

Are these splash pots capped? Seems shorties get way better EV if not.

I believe in omaha the splash the pot money doesnt count how big you can raise, so it doesnt always end up all in.

But ya shorties got way better ev....but you still have to buyin 100 bigs...

-Premise
I have been a lurker of 2+2 untill now, but since I want to share my comment on Riop i just registered on it.
I have been playing poker for not so long (3years), but i take the game seariously cause i really love it and enjoy it, It's my part-time hobby, and I make some money as if it s a part-time job. I started playing from the micro going up to low/mid stakes (bot cash and mtts) and I gradually build up my bankroll steadily ever since the start.

-Time playing on Riop
I started playing as soon as it came online, played for the first month, but since it add so many tech issues I quit for a bit and played casually from time to time. My experience regards only micro-low stake nlhe. With the new changes I came back to try it again and I would really love to continue doing so (given the possibility).
I also usually only play between 2:00-6:00 and 12:00-18:00 Cest because i am located in Asia, so i am not sure how it is during the peek hours in Europe.

-Software
I like the software, it made a lot of improvements (even though slowly) and it is going in the right direction.
Below are some suggestions i would love to be implemented:
Give the option to hide the bankroll in the lobby. I usually check the bankroll and review my hands once in one or two weeks so i don't want to know how much it is.
I like the Dynamic Avatars, but sometimes if you have more tables open and don't always watch carefully the action i find it a bit confusing. I would like to add the option to choose and fix the avatars for every seat on the table from your perspective, just as you can choose your own avatar. For example, seat1 old guy, seat2 young woman, seat3 hood guy etc.
I have a technical issue with my Surface go: touch screen seems to work only on some buttons, in the lobby it doen't work, it only works with mouse clicks. I am not sure if it is a software problem or of my device.

-Rake and STP
I like STP but for me 51% is too much. Also I think that a lot of players would like to have more direct rakeback, so something between would satisfy everyone. Maybe instead of 5,75% rake and 51% STP (that in theory is 2.81% Rake, apologies if my math is wrong), for example it would be better to have 4% Rake and 25% STP (that is 3% actual Rake), this way it could be more appealing to everyone as it would be the lowest rake in the market plus STP being there even if happening less frequently.
Regarding Big STP (like 50bb+), shortest stacks have too much of an advantage. I don't really know how to change it but I think that something should be done otherwise one shortstack with 10bb could win a stp of 5 buyins in a 6 way allin where the other guys are risking much more. That is just not right.

-Anonymous Poker
I like playing with a hud, as I think it is part of online poker, but I don't mind also playing anonymous online poker withouth it (and every other possible helping software). The feeling is smilar to live poker even though it is different. Just as playing online (with a hud) and playing live are different forms of poker, I think online poker and anonymous online poker are two different forms but they are both enjoyable. I would play them both but treat them differently.

-Customer Service
Replies and transactions are very fast, customer service is really reliable.
Also Phil seems a really trustworthy person and his Company should be his reflection. This is important since if i think about Pokerstars owners, i don't feel confortable about the future of the platform i play in.

-Promoting and Liquidity
I think that since for now the majority of the starters of the games are regs, it should be important to evaluate the need of a different rake system in order to attract more. Maybe changing the % of spt would be nice and could probably bring more players to the pool.
On the other hand since still there are no sng and mtts (biggest chunk of the games), i think that when they will be released we will see much more traffic. Maybe it could be the kick to start the real traffic on Riop. Up untill now it is really hard to start a table, and it is a shame.
I think that advertising more would be good to bring traffic but maybe it is better to wait for mtts and sng to be released first.

All in all Riop has a lot of potential and i really hope that it will become a good player oriented site.
Wish Phil and his team good work.

Okay, I'm tired of arguing about the usage of the term rakeback, so I'll conclude my discussion of the matter with this:

My problem is that the term "rakeback" has had a specific meaning in online poker since the early 2000s, and to completely change that term in their marketing (without clarifying) is not honest marketing, even if not intentional.

However, as I believe Phil Galfond is a reputable and honest guy, I will assume that this was more of an oversight rather than an intentional ploy to mislead.

I have noticed that on some parts of runitonce.eu, they clarify and write "51% rakeback through Splash the Pot", but in other prominent parts, there is no such clarification, including on the front page.

My request to Run It Once: Whenever you refer to "51% rakeback", always state clearly that it's through the Splash the Pot promotion. Otherwise people signing up will be very confused.

I'm most talking about the front page, where if you open it and wait about 15 seconds, you will see the "51% Rakeback for All Players" without any sort of clarification as to what that really means.

I hope you will consider this in the interest of transparency.

Do you get invited to many parties?

So STP is like an ante, interesting. An improvement could be if it were treated like an all-in player with a dead hand. Then max SPT win is equal to stack, and some of it could go to side pots. Just needs to handle the case that every stack is less than the STP - in which case just take the difference back IMO.

Another solution would be to simply treat a 50bb+ splash as a freeroll-flip where nobody needs to put money in the pot and everyone just gets a hand and the board gets dealt. So nobody gets into a disadvantage for his stack size and everyone gets the same chance of winning.

I also think splashes over something like 25bb should just be equity chops and has the potential to just end a game that's running (1 or more rec players losing stack and quitting).

Overall I don't like the high rake with splash the pot model as it makes correct strategy very far weighted towards avoiding seeing flops. Although everyone at the table combined gets 51% of rake paid back you don't get 51% of the rake you pay back. That means if you go postflop HU on a 6 handed table you pay half of the rake but only get 1/6th of rakeback so the rest of the table freeroll the rake you pay. That means effective rakeback in HU pots is 17% and when developing your preflop strategy you will have to use that number for rake impact on preflop strategy. Of course you also freeroll other players but that can potentially make it even more profitable to play tight? I don't know what games other people like to play but I want to see many complex interesting turn and river situations, and not play a game it is correct to try to avoid seeing flops.

Ideally I'd like to se a rake model that doesn't impact preflop strategies like we have for SNGs and MTTs, but this splash the pot model increases the rake effect on preflop even more so maybe there is a middle ground that can be found.

Since thread is currently about rake.

Why even give any rakeback at all?
Why not just collect (much) less rake in the first place (and advertise the hell out of it) and then there is no need to give it back?

Wouldn't this be a Win-Win for players and the site?

Also don't have to deal with the STP thing - might make some promo out of it (kinda like kilowatt earlier suggested it currently is something like that), if its fun and helps againts gto solvers and bots (for a while) ?

Might be completely stupid for thousand reasons, but I don't know.

Anyone who legitimately believes shortstackers have worthwhile advantage because of splashed pots should put their money where their mouth is.
Feel free to sit down and punt 90bb so you can reap the "rewards" of a big splash with your remaining 10bb.

Too many people here who want to reduce variance while forgetting that variance is the reason recs keep playing.

Every rake model impacts strategies, it's just less "in-your-face" in SNGs and MTTs. Even when ICM isn't a factor (e.g. a HU SNG), 50/50 flips are neutral cEV but are -$EV.

If anything STP addresses this well. Don't forget you have to compensate for rake no matter where you play in cash games.

But then you can actually get some interesting spots postflop when you get a splash.
Imagine it folds to blind vs blind and there's a 5-10bb splash. Probably not a bad idea to VPIP 100% as SB. Then you can get some cool wide ranges postflop.

Talking about shortstacking advantage is indeed mostly silly as you have to buy in and rebuy to exactly 100bb and frequency of splashes aren't high enough for it to be important.

Yes in MTTs and SNGs (even HU) there is a premium equal to expected future ROI obtained from playing future hands but effect is very small on seeing flops with postflop play. ICM is another beats but at least that stuff is quite deep and can lead to interesting dynamics.

During my poker career I have almost exclusively played formats where rake and other effects has close to no impact on preflop strategy and have enjoyed them more than other formats partly because of you get to see more flops (HUSNGs, ring and HU on PokerMaster and GG poker rush and cash). There is indeed almost no standard type cash games bellow 1knl where rake doesn't have a huge impact but PokerMaster and GG rush both found a solution. I'm sure it's possible to find other solutions too that's possible to get licensed.

I like big ante games for ring games and overall like splash the pot idea. I just don't like the effects high rake and splash the pot combo has on correct strategy in non-splash pots. Things like calling 3bet still get very tight with high rake regardless of ante size.

The increased rake you pay for STP does increase rake effects on preflop strategy. That was my whole point so I can't see how STP addresses rake effects well. If anything it exacerbates it.

You make a good point about rake affecting preflop strats.

STP addresses it whenever there is a splash (because now you can play wider ranges), but for sure the effect in a standard game is worse because of the higher base rake.

Would love a "timed" rake that would be equivalent to whatever they're charging at the moment, but timed rake probably won't work out too well given how many people will misunderstand it.

Yeah, I think they will have to do something drastic like you suggested. Hopefully they can get some growth.

Are there cliffs somewhere on how this is going?

Phil Galfond just sat down at PLO 10