What a great point you made.
Do they teach debate at FSU?

I like this thread. But what happens to those people who justify their cheating online, like in this payout error case, if they happen to cheat in BM games and get caught ?
You start to argue and tell others that you were right to cheat or that it isn't cheating at all ?
I don't think that anybody cares what you have to say then- you just get punished.
In online poker you can do a lot of things if you have the knowledge and don't care about the ethics but it's just ******ed to think that if you can do it and get away with it then it's OK.

Lol, did you learn how to support your claim with arguments and proof or do you just post it here and leave the burdon of proof to us?

Is there still a burdon of proof? Read the threads on this board. Read Gary's article on ESPN.com. The proof is all over the place.

I'm sure there is, but I'm asking you.

I'm pretty sure the "tango" urban legend was actually a Pepsi promotion. I vaguely remember something like that, and a commercial promoting something similar to the Marlboro bucks that you can get on a pack of smokes - but for soda.

Hey look at me being resourceful!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdackF2H7Qc

and the subsequent lawsuit:

http://www.colawp.com/topics/1999/0802-en.html

What the hell is Tango?

Urban myth.

Do you have any idea how much a Harrier Jump Jet costs? Think multiple millions.

Competitions like this are governed by their terms and conditions, not by something that they put in a television advertisement.

crap, the whole premise is flawed: mistakes in ad copy are not legally binding on the merchant unless certain magic words are expressly included in the ad, and sometimes not even then.

Merchants who honor typo prices do so for public relations, not legal, reasons.

To Sklansky:

If a casino that only owns double zero roulette wheels mistakenly installs a single zero roulette wheel, am I cheating when I play that wheel with knowledge of the error?

I agree that the collusion between the players who went all in is troubling, and probably draws an analytical distinction between this situation and the roulette wheel, but I believe these players fall somewhere on a continuum between, for example, the roulette example above and, say, the super users at absolute or the multi-accounters everywhere.

About the Harrier Jet, it's true, except it was Pepsi about ten years ago.

Dude sends in 15 coupons along with a check for $700,000 (amount of cash required to buy sufficient coupons) and asked for his jet. After a lawsuit, he didn't get it.

www.law.pitt.edu/madison/contracts/supplement/leonard_v_pepsico.htm

Tango is/was a soda out of England. They had flavors like orange and blackcurrant.

Tango advert memories

No.

I'm sure lots of online pros couldn't spot a cheater in a live setting simply because they aren't familiar with live poker. They would destroy you if you weren't cheating though.

i know a lot of poker players, and i'd say 95% wouldn't even consider the possibility of cheating. however...
this old school card dude told me "there's no such thing as a clean card game". i told him "yes there is", he looked at me like i was retarted

too busy starting brandi threads to do it yourself?

Online poker is a game of considerable skill. Not as much as in real poker, but considerable skill nonetheless.

There is a ton of cheating online, about that you're right (except the tracking software, where legal, isn't against the rules). Very, very little live cheating, really, but tons online. But it's just a form of rake. The only question asked here is, do you beat the game anyway?

However, LOL at the morons thinking the sites can protect them, or that there isn't a lot of cheating. Half the guys here will be happy to swear on a bible that nothing happened at AB, because they have a vested interest in maintaining the illusion that there's no cheating going on in an environment where it is easier to cheat than any money environment I've ever heard of. To me, as I said, from a consumer's POV, the only Q is, do you beat the game anyway? But anyone posting that there isn't an incredible amount of cheating online is stupid or lying or ignorant.

That said, when it comes to morality and modern poker, it's the pros endosing sites that swim in the real sheet. Everyone shilling for online sites is morally repugnant to me. Raymer, Yang, Gold, Hellmuth, all of them. Their price got found. Encouraging someone to play in a situation where you KNOW they will be cheated is disgusting, and the money they pay you doesn't change that.

Now, netboys: flame away. I'd write your oh-so-predictable responses, but the only thing more boring than reading them must be writing them.

Ok, netboy here.
I agree with your Q, the only real Q is do you beat the games or not. Well said. But having said that, I don't think casinos should idle. YOu can also enter with a gun in a real casino and shot someone, but they do stuff to prevent it, they put cameras etc. Cheating like multi-accounting, collusion, chip-dumping, seeing hole cards, using tracking software based on central databse can be detected, or at least reduced a lot.

MrMore,

That's one of the best posts I've read all year. Unfortunately you won't see much support around here, since you're attacking their cash cow. Nice hand.

is there anyone who still looks down on Instant Messenging at final tables with your horses?

what does any of this have to do with brandi??

Ha, so true I can't take any of his posts/opinions seriously anymore because of his stance about Brandi...... I think he believes she's an innocent virgin.

I do not favor Brandi. I am not on Brandi's side. In all my writing, fiction and non-fiction, there is a cautionary theme, warning young poker players what to watch out for to keep from being cheated and conned. I do make fun of those who get conned, as a warning to others. I have written often about cheating, not to advocate cheating but to prevent it. I have written about cons, because they are colorful. However, I am here to warn young poker players against cons.

Here is a major psychological principle. People tend to project their ethics on others. If you are honest, you project that on others and assume they are honest also. That makes you way too trusting around gambling. Newhizzle and Brandon are examples. Their honest and naive trust of others led to them getting ripped off. If you are dishonest, you may assume that most others are dishonest and make illegal propositions to others because you assume their ethics are as low as yours.

I taught college. Part of what I researched and taught was ethics. Many people won't cheat, but many will. When grading is on a curve, you are either cheating or being cheated by those who cheat. That same principle applies to poker. You need to learn everything you can about cheating and cons to protect yourself.

It is very difficult to cheat in live poker by card manipulation. It is easy to play partners. I have seen some of the very best cheaters. If you are watching closely, all the time, you can tell if someone is handling the deck in a weird way. You should not depend on anyone to protect you: not the dealer, the casino, and especially not that you are personally extremely honest. I do not cheat. It is very bad business to cheat, regardless of your moral persuasion. A gambler needs a squeaky clean reputation. If you are accused of cheating, you do not get invited to poker games. Worse can happen to you.

I am thinking about doing a YouTube video that shows about marked cards, crimps, bends, daubs, shiners, hold-out machines, cold-deck moves. When I was very young, a very top Texas road gambler showed me everything to look out for with cards and dice. I will call him Sand. Sand had come to West Texas from Dallas like several professional gamblers after the gambling wars and political crackdowns of the 1940s and 1050s. Sand traveled all over. He had way more money than all the poker players he knew: Johnny Moss, Doyle, et. al. Sand was a great friend of Benny Binion, Titanic Thompson, and Johnny Moss. Benny told him to avoid the World Series of Poker because the F.B.I. and the I.R.S. "are on the rail."

By the time I started playing high stakes poker, Sand had burned himself out around here. He was barred from most poker games. At the Democratic Convention, I think 1952, Sand was caught running a large, crooked crap game for delegates. He had a delegate's badge, shaved dice, tons of bank roll. This was a AP wire service story, in newspapers all over the world, with pictures. After that, they would put a large bowl full of dice on the table and let the shooter have a wide selection. But reputation is everything in poker. I would really hate and fear the idea that poker players thought I was a cheater. I have written several things about cheating, but I can't make any of the hand moves fast. People that can do that must practice hours and hours a day, and they are still easy to catch if you know exactly what to look out for.

Online poker is now under a big threat because of the cheating scandals. I think this will lead to reforms, more security, more prevention. The house and the casino are always against cheating because it runs off the players.

I have had a few PMs and emails that warn me to watch out for Brandi. I've never met her and don't plan to shoot any dice over the phone or loan any money though the mail. I do not take any delight in her troubles and wonder about those who do if they haven't lost anything.

I used to go to the Shop, legendary West Texas outlaw joint and poker game. There was almost zero cheating in thirty years. Some of the people playing knew how to cheat some and cheated in other games. There were bootleggers, thieves, loan sharks, con men, bookies, and an occasional pimp or bank robber. Around a regular poker game where you know nearly everyone, people are on their best behavior because they desire the respect of the other players. Also, they didn't want to be shot, rolled up in a rug, and left in a remote, sparsely populated county.

The Shop was just like any other gambling house. You walk in with a pocket full of money. People there and the house are trying to get your money. You are trying to get theirs. Many have angles, cons, props, stories, and ways to get your money. You need to realize what you are up against. You need to learn all about cheating and cons.

When you go down to Deep Ellem, keep your money in your shoe. Any trick you do not know, they will play on you.

Johnny Hughes

My bad, goes to show how the memory can fade over time, i mean i was 13 at the time it happened.

Wrong drink, wrong outcome, but i wasnt crazy that it happened

You are stealing from that McDonalds or minimum wage earning gas station clerk, who would most likely have to make up the shortage at the end of his shift, if they are working at any of these types of places, they obv need the $$ more than me, I'd always give it back. Can't say for sure what I'd do if I saw a poker site accidentally giving away cash, as they don't make minimum wage.

I also have cheated many times in the past at solitaire.

There are thousands of people making a very good living from online poker without cheating.

Just because you cant beat the game, dont go assuming its because your being cheated, its just because you suck.

I almost decided to stop reading here, but you put so much effort into it i decided i might as well have a skim. Bonus points for pointing out it takes skill, negative points for pretending that live poker is "real poker" in the sense that online isnt. Its the exact same game and its all real poker. Unless its limit.

Well, the trouble is its much easier to get away with cheating live than online, im pretty sure i posted earlier in the thread, like reply number 1, about reasons why. I was playing in a casino game once and the pot was wrongfully awarded - i pointed it out (realised after the deck was started to be shuffled for the next hand) by which time all they could do was check the cameras, which apparently didnt have a good enough view of the table to know what the outcome was.

Also, feel free to point out this "tons" of online cheating that goes on. I mean, across the sites online there must be over a million players at peak times, how many cheating scandals do you hear about? Same goes for live, except in that case you have people like Men who is accused of sneaking in chips from other players stacks and prior events in major tourneys. To my knowledge no online tournament has ever had more chips in play than they should. The same cannot be said about the main event of the WSOP.

Its also interesting to note that there are basically no real angle shoots online, but live poker is full of angling. Not the same, but not far away either.

No, there really isnt anyone who thinks that nothing happened at Absolute. Absolute themselves admit cheating took place. Nice try though, lets argue from the impossible extremes, even when they are blatantly false.

Is it really that easy? Do you cheat online? Do you have personal knowledge of people doing so? If not, then feel free to not assume something just because it "proves" your cause. Its also miles easier to cheat live than online - i cant sit with my housemate online but we have played on the same table live loads of times. We have never passed signals, softplayed or chopped winnings in the car park after the game. But we could have with pretty much no trouble and virtually no research.

Edit, ive never cheated but thought a lot about how to do it, in an effort to work out how to not be cheated myself. I know that sites track your use of instant messenger, they track who sits at what table, they watch your playing tendencies and they record it all. Live doesnt even come close to that. In fact i once saw a hand where two friends raised a third out of the pot then agreed to chop it. I was pretty new to the live games so didnt really speak up much, though said i wasnt comfortable with what happened. The dealer and everyone else at the table said nothing.

I mean, they even knew we were housemates, but the players didnt even care about that.

Again, you cant just say something, assume it is correct, provide no evidence and then claim everyone else is stupid for not believing it.

Pokerstars works very hard to stop cheats and has caught numerous big cheats over the years. FTP has had several big cases as well - and these are the ones we know they caught, there are likely hundreds more who we do not know about.

UB is a little shadier, and Gold didnt really rep a site for long as Bodog dropped him.

Either way, they do not KNOW people are going to be cheated, in fact id love for Raymer to come here and talk about how he KNOWS that Stars is working hard to protect the players.

Also, while we are here, i find it disgusting that Thierry Henry helped promote Renault Clios, because he KNOWS that people who buy them might end up in a car accident.

Why shouldnt big name pros advertise sites - especially if the site in question is well respected like every single one you named apart from UB is. And im sure even UB catches their fair share of cheats every year.

I really hate that you use the term netboy as a derogatory insult just because young online players keep outplaying you in your local card room.

This is where you claim you dont need evidence because you met a guy who knew a guy who is married to someone who met a guy who was a dealer once in a live game in bum**** arizona who overheard a conversation at the table about people colluding online.

Also, insert random "you are just a shill for the online sites" insult in reply to me too, those are always oh so origional and accurate.

Much of this thread has to do with situational ethics. All ethics questions are two questions. What would you do in a situation? What would most people do in a situation?

Many here think it is o.k. to take advantage of a business that advertised incorrectly or a poker site that overpaid.

What about situations at the poker table like someone that overlooks their hand in a live game, casino, or home game??? Do you want to take advantage and get something that is basically not coming to you??? We play cards declare where if you lay your hand on the table, anyone can call it. However, if a player has the nut flush and has overlooked it and is holding his hand up, you are not allowed to tell them anything. One player to a hand, no coaching. I will kick a friend next to me and he will take another look.

Poker went through evolutionary changes as to cheating. On the riverboats, in the Old West, and the mining camps, cheating was more common because the players didn't know much about how to catch it. I'd say there was a change with a watershed time around the 1950s where the general poker players got hard to cheat and cheating became less common. When I worked at the Golden Nugget as a poker shill in 1960, the house cheated. We signaled our hole cards. I have written about that. There were house bust-out men available if a highroller tried the craps.

It is best never to angle for a pot of take any pot that you did not win. Good relations with the poker community and a good reputation are far more important than any single pot.

Here in the south part of Texas cheating is common and always has been. Especially along the border towns. I play a lot of bar pool for money as well as poker. With some of the mexicans cheating is an advantage not a fault. It's not a racial thing. It's the way they were taught and raised. Be it dice, cards, or a pool table, you play much around here and your gonna see it.

You learn early not to get involved if it isn't your business. You might end up getting cut or shot by sticking your nose where it don't belong. Some that claim to be my friends will cheat on a pool table. If your good enough you can beat them anyway without it escalating into a brawl. If not, walk away.