I wasn't aware of the Tweet and we'd need to see the interview to judge it. He may also have said this to save face as he did look like a live skills rookie with his reactions.

I'm also suspicious of the poker clique in so far as many of the clique will unconditionally defend each other because many are linked by backing each other, coaching each other and swapping equity, so want to keep this little club protected.

This is sometimes a barrier to establishing the real facts about incidents such as this and other controversial poker happenings.

PL says in his video that the placing of the hands on the cards by his opponent as if to calmly push them in is a tell of strength and that he has it, not a sign of weakness and therefore not a fake muck, and also says to his opponent "that's strong" in the hand itself.

So I don't get the reverse angle fake muck thing to get PL to call, and something doesn't add up if his opponent when interviewed claimed that he was trying to give off a reverse tell to PL.

It adds up perfectly to me.

Villain tried to do a "reverse tell" (maybe "fake muck" is not the correct expression - whatever you want to call it).

I.e. He's strong, and so tried to look weak, to elicit a call.

But Patrick is no fool, he sees right through the reverse tell, so the villain has inadvertently confirmed that he is strong.

(Obvs if there is a deeper levelling war going on, that isn't something that we as observers are going to be able to comment on conclusively.)

I'm not saying this is the only possible interpretation of what happened, but it seems a very plausible interpretation to me.

Total witch-hunt, imo.

Bang bang

I agree this is a possible sequence of events that fits, dependent on his opponent trying to give off a false tell but doing a bad job of it.

However, I think the above is a form of incorrect reverse engineering (yes supported by his opponent's comments in an interview which may or may not be honest).

I believe from the footage and the unusual nature of the speech play that it's much more likely his reactions were natural and not a timing coincidence, on two separate occasions, to the speech play he was hearing.

I don't agree. If footage came up of a less well known player, people would still discuss it and as others ITT have said would have likely not been given a fair hearing.

There are a few questions to be answered:

1. How much of an angle, if at all, was it.
2. Did PL have 63o or a hand with showdown value.
3. Was Luigi Shehadeh really trying a reverse tell.
4. Is Luigi Shehadeh trying to now save face, or possibly covering for PL.
5. Are most poker players programmed to lie, so they simply can't help it!

Meh, you are very cynical SageDonkey!

I mean, you don't seem to believe ANYONE (you don't believe the villain's account either??! and you also don't believe Patrick's stated reasoning for betting 3X pot? do you realise he's *known* for this type of unorthodox button-clicking, right?) -- whilst you don't seem to think it's relevant that none of the players at the table thought it was an angle.

The more general philosophical debate about where the line is drawn is far more interesting to me than a particular witch hunt. Nobody can prove Patrick did anything worse than perhaps "being a little naïve" (innocent until proven guilty, no?) and having watched his entire explanatory video, his story seems completely coherent to me.

(I can relate to the naïvety thing - e.g. there are two or three "etiquette rules" floating around the live-pokersphere that seem counterintuitive to me - I've innocently violated them, and I'm unconvinced by mainstream opinion as to the merit of the supposed rules.)

As an aside, if Patrick is being disingenuous in his explanatory video, I'd almost go as far as to say I admire his gall - he has mounted a very convincing defence. I realise though that a lot of people will have made up their minds very quickly that is was an angle, and that's the end of it.

Everyone thinking this is an angle has clearly never played a tourney in LA.

Yes I'm very cynical, when it comes to poker/poker players......and politicians and realtors, but not for any other groups.

At first I couldn't see how he would 3x OTT with 63o (not a good play IMO) but now it appears that it will be shown with cards up on the EPT highlights show I lean towards that he did have 63o.

If so, I think he angled but didn't realistically have much to gain from it, but was still an angle.

From 4:25 in the video some of it's false IMO about why he table talked and LG's reactions.

Okay, so more of an inquisition than a witch-hunt.

Nobody expected that.

Sorry, but this is normal for 2plus2 NVG and it's normal in society for people to discuss incidences of people potentially rule/etiquette breaking, particularly if it's in unusual circumstances.

~75% of people think this is an angle, some a bad angle and others only a minor one. Others think it's an angle but happens often elsewhere so is not an issue.

These things need discussing/policing up because if not the game will deteriorate.

If it was a less known player then I'm pretty sure no-one would have said anything lol

You mean like here? http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29...0k-hu-1537175/

The above is incredibly bad, albeit doesn't appear to have been completely proven, and I am not comparing the two incidents at all. Card marking if that's what happened is way off the scale in cheating.

Angling/minor angling is very small potatoes by comparison.

But Valeriu Coca was clearly not a well known player when 2plus2 discussed him.

Coca was playing against well known players.
It was at the WSOP, in a blue riband event.
By mentioning it you ARE comparing them.

Good points. I need you on my legal team.

I still think the hand in question on a live stream for a ME would be flagged up and discussed on 2plus2. Possible exception is two unknowns playing a small pot.

I dare say also that if it was an unknown rec allegedly angling a top well known pro that there would be total outrage in the poker community and the pro poker player victim would be carried shoulder high through the streets of the on line Pokersphere for remaining so cool and dignified in the face of such angling.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/mi...sted&t=1685543

Stop posting man you're keeping this thread going almost single handedly. Also i see you have reduced the length of your posts due to people complaining how long they were in the mod forum. Think its cheating posting so many times on one topic like this and including crap like random tournaments you were previously playing seriously no one gives a **** sorry to break it to you.

Agree with some of what you said but no point getting so bent out of shape over it. You lose credibility by going so crazy over it.

Fair point, I've posted too much ITT, but I have opened up some additional related issues. I only mentioned that random tournament as a lead in to my reply to his bet challenge and to declare that I'm not an NLHE expert.

I'll take an extended breather from the thread and appreciate your advice.

(I won't be at all smug if the hand is later screened cards up and he has 8c6c!)

This thread is now 16% SageDonkey

I wonder what percent of text is his.

A lot would be my guess!

But as he has now allowed himself to post over his self-imposed 100 word limit if he has to address certain posts, he has now lost any respect he had in that context.

So I would now guess at A lot +, and a little more added on.

In an exotic location, Alec Torelli frowns at his monitor and wonders where was SageDonkey when he needed him most?

Okay, king. May I call you king? I want to check first in case I'm over stepping my bounds.

This is the best post in the thread so far