Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 01-15-2008, 04:55 AM   #1
Ansky
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Ansky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: .
Posts: 17,523
Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Open letter to the poker community on integrity, and our responsibility as gamblers.

I recently listened to the PokerRoad webcast with JJProdigy, and within minutes felt sick to my stomach. I was genuinely ashamed as a professional poker player that these were my peers. Gavin Smith and Joe Sebok showed a genuine apathy toward JJ’s malicious pattern of cheating at online poker, even sympathy for his situation. Late in the show, Gavin mentioned that he knew of players who stole tournament chips from prelims at the WSOP to save for the ME, and stakers who would confiscate their horses chips for their own tournament, and yet they are still accepted members of the poker community. This is a travesty, and just because there is nothing the tournament directors and casinos are doing about it, does not mean that you Gavin can do nothing. You are a voice for the poker community. OK, you are not exactly the Jay Leno of poker radio, but at least do your part, NAME NAMES.

This is an incredibly fragile time for poker in America, and one thing that is sure to help us, is maintaining a reputation as people with integrity. The old image of card sharks as cheats and liars has been really cleaned up, especially with Travel Channel, ESPN, and every other mainstream and clean representation of poker. People like JJ, who Joe referred to as a “stand up guy for coming on the show,” are the rotten apples that spoil the bunch. Thirty years ago, who would have thought that the stereotypical image of a poker player in 2008 would be 21 year old college kids with silly hoodies and sunglasses, who play most of their poker on the computer? We are no longer the seedy backroom hustlers, we are out in the open, honest, and fair—most of us.

When I play live poker, I often talk to live players and ask them if they play online. Frequently their response is “nah, I don’t trust online poker, I think its rigged.” I used to always assure them that online sites are as safe as Visa or Mastercard, and they have nothing to gain from cheating. Can I really tell them this honestly though? I used to always tell them the mere possibility of being caught is way too much of a risk for the sites, especially when they can earn easy money being legitimate. But is the risk truly too great?

I was at a sports bar the other day, and I have gotten used to the site of poker on the TVs at bars at this point. Something that has not yet been conditioned in my brain though, was the site of AbsolutePoker ads during the commercial. Did ESPN really sign a contract, to show advertisements with a site that was unequivocally caught to have a major cheating flaw in its system? A site which scrambled to cover up the evidence, a site where the major cheaters in question were executives from the company itself? If that contract was signed before the scandal, then so be it, let it run its course. I truly hope though that there is at least one advertising executive at ESPN who remembers his business school course on business ethics. Just like it would be frowned upon to give press to a company known to be corrupt and illegitimate in another field, so too it should be frowned upon for a massive network like ESPN to turn their cheek to any ethical standards. If they were contractually bound before the scandal, then I truly hope that someone at ESPN will end their relationship with Absolute.

Card counters in blackjack, are not cheaters. They are simply people smart enough to discover a flaw in the system. Multiaccounters, colluders, chip dumpers in tournaments, are all cheaters. Yet all these people can roam free in any casino, any tournament area, and feel free from any scrutiny by any tournament or casino bosses. The casinos are brutally efficient in weeding out the card counters, they even keep records with rival casinos about the card counters because it suits both their interests to do so. If someone is caught counting cards at the Bellagio on Monday, do you think he will be able to walk into the Venetian the next week? Fat chance.

Card counters are not cheaters, and yet they are so vigilantly and unequivocally barred from casinos. Yet known cheaters are banned from one site and not the next, or are banned from one tournament and not the next. Why is there no unity amongst the casinos or the sites in this case, but such fervor for unity in the case of card counters? Oh right, money, it’s always about money, and never integrity. Card counters win money from the casinos, multi accounters and cheaters pay rake just like everyone else, they are only stealing from us. This is why the burden is on the PLAYERS to pressure the casinos, the sites, and even TV networks to be harsher about this, and why people like JJProdigy should not feel comfortable enough to sit down face to face with two important figures in the poker community.

I realize I am being optimistic, and perhaps nave, but what do we have to lose? When users on PokerStars demanded that JJ not be allowed to play at PCA, he was banned. This is a perfect example of what we are capable of if unified in our belief in integrity and honesty. And I call on PokerStars and FullTilt to show the same enthusiasm and dedication to a preservation of integrity that I hope all poker players believe in.

Every day we are getting closer and closer to the possibility of an improvement with regard to UIGEA, and yet far too many of us are sitting here and watching the rotten apples fall right into the basket with the ripe apples. In all my time in poker (a mere four or so years), I have always been told that a gamblers word is everything. Integrity, honesty, ethics, were all virtues in poker that anyone in the community had to have, as it was an integral part of the oil that keeps the poker machine running. I can’t even count the number of times I have made financial deals with trusted poker friends who could easily have run off with five, and even six figure sums of my money or equity, and I would have no way of doing anything about it. Why do I put myself in such situations? Because I know there are certain people in this world that I could hand my whole roll to and say, “hold this for a second,” and in no dimension or situation, would the thought of stealing from me ever occur to them. These are the people that gamblers are supposed to be. That is how our world should work, and how it works when it is at its best.

Make no mistake, multi accounting is not light cheating. It is as heavy a form of cheating as you can have in tournaments. On the radio show JJ said that he rarely, but occasionally did play with one of his own accounts in a tournament. We all probably remember ZeeJustins infamous “open more sit and gos to negate the ethical advantage” line. The fact of the matter, is that it doesn’t matter how many tables there are in the tournament, you will eventually wind up at the same table as yourself. Even if you aren’t, the mere presence of two accounts in the same tournament is a travesty.

Perhaps one of the only moments where there was a hard question, was when Joe (or possibly Gavin) asked JJ why he wouldn’t give the money he won cheating to charity, and JJ had no answer. Why not Josh? Why is it so difficult to come to terms with the fact that you are in possession of illegitimate funds? The money is yours in name, but we both know most of it does not belong to you. And how dare you have the audacity not to think it a responsibility as a demonstration of repentance and of reform, that you must give up your illicit funds. What kind of apology of “I am sorry, I stole your money,” ends in “but I am going to keep it, sorry.” As long as you keep your million dollar savings account, or whatever it is, you are still no better than bank robber to me.

Shame on both Gavin and Joe for saying that Greg Raymer was out of line for the following quote: “It is obvious to me that he has no real remorse. If he's at my table in a live event, I'll gladly out him to the table, and point out that we all need to be alert because this guy is willing to cheat anytime he thinks he won't be caught.”

Out of line? I only hope that every WSOP winner, as an ambassador for poker is so morally and ethically conscious as Greg. I applaud you Greg, as being a person who can shape and alter this little world of ours, showing integrity and class first, and greed and ignorance last. JJ responded by saying that Greg doesn’t know him, and thus should not pass judgment. You are in no place to say who is right and who is wrong to pass judgment in this community. Once you have shown such a clear breach of ethics and integrity in this business, the worst should be assumed. I am friends with several people who know JJ well and they all say he is a good kid who is trustworthy (aside from cheating). I have no doubt this is true, but to expect that you won’t be bashed and labeled as a cheater, after being basically the biggest cheater at online tournaments, in the history of the game, are you serious?

Amanda Leatherman almost always does a good job as a representative for poker in her interviews. She isn’t the most knowledgeable about the game, but she gets the job done and is generally on point. But take a step back for a moment please, the next time you are about to interview the Jesse James of online poker, do not sugar coat the questions and smile at him like you smile at Daniel Negreanu. He does not deserve those smiles, he does not deserve the “how are you” introduction. By breaking that code that we as gamblers almost… ALMOST unanimously follow of morals and ethics, he loses the right to get treated like everyone else. People should not ask him, how are you, they should ask him, why the **** are you in this room, why are you flying to poker tournaments, crawl back under the hole you crawled out of, and stay there because you are not one of us.

Gavin, do not let JJ of the hook either, by telling us how much other people have done it. Mob mentality exists because people feel that when in the presence of their peers, their responsibility is deflected from them to the rest of the group. Do not let JJ become one of the group, because no, not everyone did or does it. I have never multiaccounted. Not when I was 16, 18, or now that I am 21.

JJ, you said you have changed your beliefs because you realize you are no longer a child, and you are becoming an adult. If you want to be a man, then act like one. Criminals who confess and agree to give information for a free pass do just that, they give information. Saying “I am sorry” is meaningless without action. Give the money to charity, name names of other cheaters, tell us exactly how to catch people like you, and show a general commitment to ethics and moral values which are expected of you, and you will be forgiven with time.

The only chance we have as poker players of keeping our game clean, is a complete and utter revulsion and rejection of cheaters. Casinos and poker sites need to start working together to develop black lists and suspected cheaters. Sites say they do everything they can, but they do not. If someone is banned from one site for cheating, they should then be banned from every card room in the world, and every other site. This is possible, entirely possible, and it would put a MAJOR damper on the willingness of cheaters to cheat. Let’s face it, JJ cheated because he was “underground” anyway, and there would be no repercussions in the long run. If cheaters know the punishment will fit the crime, they won’t cheat anymore.

I do not know what I can expect to accomplish with this, but at least I will go to bed knowing I did my best. I plan to play this game for a little while longer, and I am concerned for its legitimacy knowing that cheaters can sit with the peers they cheated money from, and smile and joke about someone calling them out for their actions.

I am well known/connected in the online poker community, but I have no real connection to the bigger names in the live game, I only hope that this gets read by some of the role models and important figures in the live community, because they are the ones who are mainstream and well regarded by the public. Please do not let JJ be an example of what you can do in this world, cheat for 3 years, decide to stop, and carry on normally. Please let his kind know that they are not acceptable.

-Dani Stern

Last edited by Ansky; 01-15-2008 at 05:03 AM.
Ansky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 04:58 AM   #2
aejones
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
aejones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Running the Streets
Posts: 20,182
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

dun dun dun

i endorse this anouncement

Last edited by aejones; 01-15-2008 at 05:06 AM.
aejones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 04:59 AM   #3
indigo
journeyman
 
indigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: nh Golser WTF
Posts: 216
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

vnh ansky. too bad it's wasted on most of the nvgtards.
indigo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:01 AM   #4
Ansky
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Ansky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: .
Posts: 17,523
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micro Donk View Post
donkaments are serious business
Thanks for helping with the situation.
Ansky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:04 AM   #5
1o BoY
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Waiting for my time to shine
Posts: 985
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

so obviously you are outing Actionjeff, justin B.... why is jj taking all this ****??
1o BoY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:08 AM   #6
tarheeljks
The Dark Knight
 
tarheeljks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: no tacos this year
Posts: 37,487
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

nice post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1o BoY View Post
so obviously you are outing Actionjeff, justin B.... why is jj taking all this ****??
you can't be serious
tarheeljks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:09 AM   #7
1o BoY
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Waiting for my time to shine
Posts: 985
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheeljks View Post
nice post.


you can't be serious
Why not??
1o BoY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:14 AM   #8
1o BoY
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Waiting for my time to shine
Posts: 985
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity
1o BoY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:15 AM   #9
EWS87
banned
 
EWS87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 6,428
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

i know its mid January but this is clearly post of the year and probably will be for some time
EWS87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:16 AM   #10
PerDoom
veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,034
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick B. View Post
Good post.
.
PerDoom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:16 AM   #11
tarheeljks
The Dark Knight
 
tarheeljks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: no tacos this year
Posts: 37,487
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1o BoY View Post
Why not??
he cheated, why shouldn't he take "all this ****."
tarheeljks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:21 AM   #12
1o BoY
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Waiting for my time to shine
Posts: 985
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheeljks View Post
he cheated, why shouldn't he take "all this ****."
Yer i no but why does everyone love/respect other know CHEATS? is it cos hes younger or an unknown?
1o BoY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:22 AM   #13
ChoicestHops
veteran
 
ChoicestHops's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,995
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

I used to feel some sympathy toward JJ because of his age. Honestly, I don't know if I could represent myself ethically when I was as young as him. But, your article is absolutely correct in the way you represent the facts. There needs to be accountability for someone's actions, and saying "Im sorry for multi-accounting, and from this day I won't do it again" two weeks before you play live tournaments doesn't cut it.
ChoicestHops is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:23 AM   #14
Izo Fazo
journeyman
 
Izo Fazo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 261
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Where can I subscribe this?

Very nice post!
Izo Fazo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:23 AM   #15
Conspire
*********
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 14,927
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

JJprodigy does not deserve any of this attention at all from the media, if JJ gets this kind of attention than so should ansky. We cant let this kid keep going around spreading his bull s***.

Last edited by Conspire; 01-15-2008 at 05:25 AM. Reason: oops
Conspire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:28 AM   #16
BraveJayhawk
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
BraveJayhawk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Couch Coaching
Posts: 8,163
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Players should not be judged upon the quality of play, but the way in which they went about becoming successful.
BraveJayhawk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:30 AM   #17
Zima421
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Zima421's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 18,876
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveJayhawk View Post
Players should not be judged upon the quality of play, but the way in which they became successful.
lol
Zima421 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:30 AM   #18
1o BoY
adept
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Waiting for my time to shine
Posts: 985
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

"His fame turned to infamy, however, in early 2006 when a controversy over the way "ZeeJustin" was playing multi-table tournaments resulted in PartyPoker.com confiscating more than $100,000 and closing his account(s). It was a dark hour for the young star, whose reputation took a heavy beating despite his attempts at a public explanation and apology.

That fall from grace, deserved or not, is all but forgotten on the tournament circuit these days, courtesy of some astonishing results as of late."
1o BoY is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:33 AM   #19
cameronbarry
adept
 
cameronbarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: BumHuntington Beach
Posts: 775
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

thanks ansky, a brilliant and truly necessary message.
cameronbarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:44 AM   #20
lapoker17
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: FEELING YOU
Posts: 8,960
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

nice job.
lapoker17 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:46 AM   #21
Lee Jones
Semi-retired poker guy
 
Lee Jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: At the Station Inn
Posts: 2,091
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Hi folks -
As many of you have noted, Ansky nailed it.

I could go on about it, but I'd just be saying (largely less eloquently than he did) the same thing.

I wrote a Card Player piece on the same subject some time ago. Let's hope the general tide of opinion is turning.

BTW, I was on the PokerRoad radio show when I was at the PCA, and I was impressed with Joe Sebok. But he's wrong on this, and if I get the chance, I'll tell him that. I also suspect that his dad (Barry G) is 100% on "our" side in this matter.

Anyway, Ansky gets my POTY vote.

Regards, Lee
Lee Jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:53 AM   #22
Melchiades
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Melchiades's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oslo
Posts: 7,045
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Co-signed.
Melchiades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:54 AM   #23
inyourface
banned
 
inyourface's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Forum trolls: P***sing off MTTc
Posts: 1,210
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Your obsession with JJ is getting creepy imo. Firstly good post but why aren't you focusing equally on Mark Telscher (sp), ZJ, Thorladen etc. These people all multiaccounted yet avoided your vitriol.

Last edited by inyourface; 01-15-2008 at 05:59 AM.
inyourface is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:55 AM   #24
GutPunch
veteran
 
GutPunch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 2,956
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

Great post Ansky. I could not agree with you more.

Its such a shame that we as players have to do so much of the policing of poker. I really liked your comments about the casinos not barring poker players who cheat, but have no problem doing it when a blakjack counter is caught. Its a shame that pokersites don't work together on this as well.

I also find it absoutly disgusting when I see an absolute poker add on TV, or in a respected poker magazine such as CARDPLAYER. Do they even know what they are promoting? Or is it all about the all powerful $$$$?

Once again, great post ansky.
GutPunch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-15-2008, 05:56 AM   #25
Ansky
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Ansky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: .
Posts: 17,523
Re: Open Letter to the Community and Beyond on Integrity

I am simply using the case which is most relevant now, they didn't have Telscher on the show did they?
Ansky is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:45 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online