please don't flood the forum with crappy accusations of cheating, i'm trying to seriously fight real cheating for real money...


kthks

$100

deleted

Satellite event, placement beyond bubble doesn't matter.

It does look a bit suspicious, but I'd need lots more evidence.

[x] forgot to put a space in checkbox

[x] checkbox in reference to someone else's checkbox

lol good read, would read again

lol bitterments

Nobody would ever collude in an online tournament. There is no point trying to police this because the online tournament community does a great job at policing themselves. OP is nuts for even mentioning the words "cheating" and "online tournament" in this same sentence.

I wouldnt call it obvious. However those that are discounting it completely are also foolish. This was a satellite, not a standard tournament. The big stack gains nothing from doing this.Nothing. From the hand history, the big stack calls the all in after liverspot goes all in. One hand proves nothing and in this case it is a decent play to try end the tournament. If this were to continously happen, then it becomes suspicsous.

The OP states that the big stack started shoving every hand, it would make sense for collusion. If I am the big stack and my friend is the SS and we are at the bubble of the tournament. If I push every hand I am greatly increasing his odds of making it in. I either A) get someone else to call and have the chance of busting them so you get in, or B) have you call with a very strong hand where you double up.

Lets not be so harsh to OP. I definitly wouldnt call it obvious, but I think there is some suspicous play at least.

This is easily one of the worst threads ever. I actually thought of using the Sandler line prior to seeing it posted.

I'd do this as big stack simply to make my opponents pay dearly for being the donkeys that they are and not following proper satellite strategy.

The bigstack was probably just having a blast bullying the table. Even by pushing all-in for a while, he barely affects his own chances of bubbling.

I think "spite" is a way more likely possibility than collusion. Maybe the 2nd or 3rd short stack had pissed him off earier in the tournament and was trying to get them to bubble, I have seen that more than once. To try to call this "Obvious Collusion" is laughable.

Here is why it almost certainly wasn't collusion:

Seat 1: ImNotSoGood (15654 in chips)
Seat 4: CACIATORE (39687 in chips)
Seat 5: RickyReardon (74982 in chips)
Seat 6: LiverSpot (766 in chips)
Seat 7: vikihris (13366 in chips)
Seat 8: the_rotter77 (106525 in chips)
Seat 9: hubla1 (14520 in chips)

rotter has a massive lead. Even if he loses an all-in pot to Ricky, he will still have over 35 times the chip stack of Liver. rotter is just bored or tired, and wants to get this game over with. Furthermore, rotter figures that if he pushes in every hand, nobody can possibly call, except for Liver, who has to call eventually, even if simply because the blinds will have him all-in preflop. rotter simply figures that he wants to race against Liver, spotting Liver the best hand, because Liver is going to have to win at least 3 such flips before he's not the shortest stack anymore. If he does manage to do this, that's still OK for rotter, as he has stolen so many blinds and antes in the process that he has made the other stacks even shorter.

I'm not saying that this is a smart strategy, just a possible one. Of course, rotter's mistake is not paying attention to the fact that he should instead just let the entire group gang up on Liver this hand and greatly increase the chances of ending it now.

Just based upon the hand history and nothing else, I'd say there is only a minor chance that collusion occurred. However, you still did the right thing in reporting it to PokerStars support. They might not have just this isolated hand to look at, but other evidence of collusive activity between rotter and Liver from other tables and other tournaments. That earlier inconclusive evidence might match up with this evidence, and then be enough to "convict" these two of cheating. So, it is always a good thing to highlight anything fishy and email it to support, even when you know it is not enough to "prove" anything.

Later, Greg Raymer (FossilMan)

but then you're preventing the donkament you're satelliting into from having the worst possible players

i.e., players like Liverspot

Raymer - nice post. pretty much what I was thinking.

Except there was another aspect that others seem to be hitting on which is:


This one makes little sense to me. How does this greatly increase the short-stack's chances of making it in?
The first criteria is that you would have to have another player stupid enough to actually call. Now, it is possible that somebody might not be able to resist when they have AA or KK even though they should probably be folding those too by this point. But I don't think that qualifies as greatly increasing the super-short stack's chances.

Because if the big stack isnt pushing there is almost no way the super short stack makes it in because he is goign to be blinded off with huge luck?

Guys,

Since even Greg Raymer has gone and commented on this ridicoulous accusation (based on anger at bubbling I assume) ; I've attached the hand that happened just before the hand that was posted by Imnotsogood.
You can draw your own conclusions.

PokerStars Game #12141083342: Tournament #61150023, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (1000/2000) - 2007/09/19 - 00:48:40 (ET)
Table '61150023 3' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: ImNotSoGood (15854 in chips)
Seat 4: CACIATORE (39887 in chips)
Seat 5: RickyReardon (81182 in chips)
Seat 6: LiverSpot (18966 in chips)
Seat 7: vikihris (15566 in chips)
Seat 8: the_rotter77 (79325 in chips)
Seat 9: hubla1 (14720 in chips)
ImNotSoGood: posts the ante 200
CACIATORE: posts the ante 200
RickyReardon: posts the ante 200
LiverSpot: posts the ante 200
vikihris: posts the ante 200
the_rotter77: posts the ante 200
hubla1: posts the ante 200
LiverSpot: posts small blind 1000
vikihris: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the_rotter77 [Ad 9c]
the_rotter77: raises 4000 to 6000
hubla1: folds
ImNotSoGood: folds
CACIATORE: folds
RickyReardon: calls 6000
LiverSpot: calls 5000
vikihris: folds
*** FLOP *** [As 5h 5d]
LiverSpot: checks
the_rotter77: checks
RickyReardon: checks
*** TURN *** [As 5h 5d] [5s]
LiverSpot: checks
the_rotter77: bets 6000
RickyReardon: folds
LiverSpot: calls 6000
*** RIVER *** [As 5h 5d 5s] [Qc]
LiverSpot: checks
the_rotter77: bets 6000
LiverSpot: calls 6000
*** SHOW DOWN ***
the_rotter77: shows [Ad 9c] (a full house, Fives full of Aces)
LiverSpot: mucks hand
the_rotter77 collected 45400 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 45400 | Rake 0
Board [As 5h 5d 5s Qc]
Seat 1: ImNotSoGood folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: CACIATORE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: RickyReardon (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 6: LiverSpot (small blind) mucked [Ks Kc]
Seat 7: vikihris (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: the_rotter77 showed [Ad 9c] and won (45400) with a full house, Fives full of Aces
Seat 9: hubla1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)



PokerStars Game #12141101058: Tournament #61150023, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (1000/2000) - 2007/09/19 - 00:50:02 (ET)
Table '61150023 3' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: ImNotSoGood (15654 in chips)
Seat 4: CACIATORE (39687 in chips)
Seat 5: RickyReardon (74982 in chips)
Seat 6: LiverSpot (766 in chips)
Seat 7: vikihris (13366 in chips)
Seat 8: the_rotter77 (106525 in chips)
Seat 9: hubla1 (14520 in chips)
ImNotSoGood: posts the ante 200
CACIATORE: posts the ante 200
RickyReardon: posts the ante 200
LiverSpot: posts the ante 200
vikihris: posts the ante 200
the_rotter77: posts the ante 200
hubla1: posts the ante 200
vikihris: posts small blind 1000
the_rotter77: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to the_rotter77 [Ac 3d]
hubla1: folds
ImNotSoGood: folds
CACIATORE: calls 2000
RickyReardon: calls 2000
LiverSpot: calls 566 and is all-in
vikihris: calls 1000
the_rotter77: raises 104325 to 106325 and is all-in
CACIATORE: folds
RickyReardon: folds
vikihris: folds
*** FLOP *** [2c 2d Ts]
*** TURN *** [2c 2d Ts] [Jh]
*** RIVER *** [2c 2d Ts Jh] [Th]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
the_rotter77: shows [Ac 3d] (two pair, Tens and Deuces)
the_rotter77 collected 5736 from side pot
LiverSpot: shows [3h As] (two pair, Tens and Deuces)
the_rotter77 collected 2115 from main pot
LiverSpot collected 2115 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9966 Main pot 4230. Side pot 5736. | Rake 0
Board [2c 2d Ts Jh Th]
Seat 1: ImNotSoGood folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: CACIATORE folded before Flop
Seat 5: RickyReardon folded before Flop
Seat 6: LiverSpot (button) showed [3h As] and won (2115) with two pair, Tens and Deuces
Seat 7: vikihris (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: the_rotter77 (big blind) showed [Ac 3d] and won (7851) with two pair, Tens and Deuces
Seat 9: hubla1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

If the_rotter77 had simply typed "6766" instead of "6000", this thread might never had occurred!

You guys need to relax with the flaming, I already admitted that this is def not collusion. It was a big stack just being evil and prob having a blast. It was a steam post from bubbling (it was 109r to the 2600 ME for those saying it was a 10 sit and go or w/e) and being on a 10k downswing.

I did happen to get a 2 day ban for telling sum1 to die. Its just so much worse bubbling after playing for hours and being like a 99.9 fav to get a seat.

Collusion or not, pushing allin on this hand here is poor play . There are two limpers which mean they have decent hands. The shortstack is allin. The proper play is to call or fold assuming this is the bubble. He's not going to beat 4 hands most of the time and isolating him with A3o here is assuming he has a better hand than you and that you're looking to pick up the pot based on the overlay since he's shortstacked. I would flame you for making this shove on the bubble because it's just not smart.

Thanks for enlightening us pro. The point is that the big stack doesn't care if it's a "good" play b/c he is getting a seat regardless of what happens. He is just messing around b/c it's fun to terrorize people on a satellite bubble when you get the chance.

dude

I've played a million of the wcoop sats, and this is incredibly standard. People are ******ed. They're ******ed in the 11rs and they're ******ed in the 80r/109r.

No one knows how to play satellites, and big stacks shove on the bubble all the time. 75% of the bubble strategy in these things is figuring out which kind of dumb the dumb people are.

edit - not intended to flame; bad luck op, nothing more frustrating than bubbling this way. The worst is when three or four people make bad calls and every time the allin wins, then they make a bad call on you with the worst hand and win.