IS it now ok go buy datamined hands? - Poker News

that time of year again, with so many good huds now a days it feels a few of them are worth only if you datamine, so I wanna buy, but is it still not kosher?

link to old thread
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...83/?highlight=

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01-01-2024 , 01:19 AM

smartDFS

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 1,850

i believe mason malmuth wrote a chapter in his new book on this, you should either buy it or participate in his free kindle giveaway to find the answers you're looking for

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01-01-2024 , 03:43 AM

SeaKing

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 5,389

Sh*t posting about Sh*t posters, i liek it.

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01-01-2024 , 11:31 AM

fasterlearner

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 637

I guess its not

morally seems okay to me. I mean its not cheating.
Poker is funny too, sometimes the data mined hands will backfire
and lead you astray.

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01-01-2024 , 04:11 PM

NLBiddy

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 293

No it's cheating, but online is ruined anyway so just do it.

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01-01-2024 , 04:14 PM

420legalize420

centurion

Join Date: Dec 2019 Posts: 125

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartDFS

i believe mason malmuth wrote a chapter in his new book on this, you should either buy it or participate in his free kindle giveaway to find the answers you're looking for

Kindle theory optimal

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01-01-2024 , 07:09 PM

fasterlearner

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 637

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLBiddy

No it's cheating, but online is ruined anyway so just do it.

Really is it cheating.

So if you write on paper 20 hand histories and give me the paper.
I have the paper when I play, thats cheating?

if you do the same live and hand me some info on a player is that cheating

I'm not sure I agree its cheating

Might say its cheating in the aggreement with the site but the sites just write rules
to hopefully make everyone lose equally

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01-01-2024 , 07:16 PM

chiefsfan17

veteran

Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 2,049

Quote:

Originally Posted by fasterlearner

Not sure how anyone who grinds online can think it's not cheating. It's an insane advantage if used correctly.

And lol at comparing it to giving a friend info on a live player or live table.

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01-01-2024 , 07:29 PM

BrickMMA

grinder

Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 674

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartDFS

i believe mason malmuth wrote a chapter in his new book on this, you should either buy it or participate in his free kindle giveaway to find the answers you're looking for

Free kindle giveaway? How does one get in on that?

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01-01-2024 , 07:37 PM

#10

plaaynde

Poker Historian

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 20,086

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrickMMA

Free kindle giveaway? How does one get in on that?

Think the chapter is about win rate and standard deviation comparison. Mining? Doubt it. Not announced how to get it yet, apparently we all will get in.

Last edited by plaaynde; 01-01-2024 at 07:47 PM.

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01-01-2024 , 08:35 PM

#11

Adiprene1

veteran

Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 2,170

Quote:

Originally Posted by chiefsfan17

Not sure how anyone who grinds online can think it's not cheating. It's an insane advantage if used correctly.

Mason can prove that it's statistically possible noone has bought datamined hands, so don't worry about it.

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01-01-2024 , 08:49 PM

#12

FazendeiroBH

self-banned

Join Date: Oct 2014 Posts: 2,514

Pokerstars

Tools and Services Prohibited at All Times

...
The practice of datamining hands or private results (observing games without playing in order to build up a database of hand histories for future reference); the use of hands or private results acquired through datamining; the mass sharing of hands, private results or playing statistics for the purpose of analysis of opponents.
...

So, it is prohibited. Thus, anyone doing it is cheating.

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01-01-2024 , 09:11 PM

#13

TRUSTtheDRAWCESS

veteran

Join Date: Nov 2016 Posts: 2,783

Baal_en_ciaga is that you?

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01-01-2024 , 11:00 PM

#14

Don Melchor

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,663

the thing is Im pretty sure, most regs buy hhs, then theres stables where everyone shares hhs. when Im playing I go under the presumption that they have 100k hands on me. but it pisses me off that stars dont do anything about it.

if you play football, you could say its like watching a video of the team your playing next sunday, is it cheating? no
if its online it should be fair game, but its not for the people with ethics, if sites dont want it, they should do something to monitor regs, or just let it be fair game

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01-01-2024 , 11:08 PM

#15

toots babos

newbie

Join Date: Nov 2018 Posts: 41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Melchor

Buy buy buy, I don't personally but if you want to do it yourself then go ahead. Some may call you a cheater but in this day in age you'll still be on the bottom rung of the ladder when it comes to cheating 😉

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01-02-2024 , 06:17 AM

#16

Cloven

newbie

Join Date: Jan 2017 Posts: 26

Idk but i'd like to hear Brian Hastings take on this.

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01-02-2024 , 09:47 AM

#17

Slugant

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 7,183

it never was and never will be

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01-02-2024 , 01:04 PM

#18

Don Melchor

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 5,663

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slugant

it never was and never will be

id say more then 3/4 of regs are doing it, so its kind standard tbh

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01-02-2024 , 01:40 PM

#19

NLBiddy

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 293

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don Melchor

id say more then 3/4 of regs are doing it, so its kind standard tbh

Makes sense why you're asking this.

My guess would be less than 10% of regs are buying HHs, but if you've managed to convince yourself it's like 3/4s, then go ahead. Everyone is doing it and it's standard (apparently). Don't have to feel like you're cheating now, do you?

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01-02-2024 , 01:42 PM

#20

persianpunisher

veteran

Join Date: Jun 2014 Posts: 2,833

No. If it were like Chess where all games are available to the entire population, then I think it's a different conversation.

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01-02-2024 , 01:51 PM

#21

madlex

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 17,810

Quote:

Originally Posted by NLBiddy

My guess would be less than 10% of regs are buying HHs, but if you've managed to convince yourself it's like 3/4s, then go ahead. Everyone is doing it and it's standard (apparently). Don't have to feel like you're cheating now, do you?

The number obviously depends on the definition of "reg". If you expand "buy" to "share hands with each other" the 3/4 number might not be far off for players who are part of some kind of study group or stable. For everyone else it might actually be closer to 0% than 10%.

FWIW, that might be a topic where people might also have different opinions based on if they played (and bought HHs) at a time when it wasn't against TOS yet. Same as ghosting which wasn't illegal back in the day.

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01-02-2024 , 02:03 PM

#22

NLBiddy

journeyman

Join Date: Jan 2014 Posts: 293

Quote:

Originally Posted by madlex

I agree it's impossible to know

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01-02-2024 , 03:03 PM

#23

aner0

Verified Coach NLHE

Join Date: Oct 2013 Posts: 3,712

I will just say, without datamining websites we would've never found out about the GG superusers

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01-02-2024 , 07:55 PM

#24

AlanBostick

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 11,625

Quote:

Originally Posted by FazendeiroBH

If it violates the TOS on one site and does not violate the TOS on another, is it cheating or not?

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01-02-2024 , 08:29 PM

#25

fasterlearner

grinder

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 637

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanBostick

If it violates the TOS on one site and does not violate the TOS on another, is it cheating or not?

I agree its more grey area.

I think many of you are overestimating its advantage.
I used to use HUD's but don't anymore because Party poker doesn't allow.
But made me realize I was looking at those numbers too much, and making mistakes
by making decisions based on numbers, and perhaps ignoring game flow.

There's so many regs in today's game also. Not like there numbers are very different
from one to the next.

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