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Old 06-14-2015, 07:42 PM   #351
ambientsilence
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by easyfnmoney View Post
Pokerstars should make it completely transparent in regards to who wins and losses. This should be for every player of every limit and these should be sortable and contain player location information, times of day that the player typically logs in, wins and losses, of course, and the database should completely transparent. Would it encourage bum hunting?
This has nothing to do with bumhunting. It's a bad idea, because it's tapping the glass and embarrasses the fish.
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Old 06-14-2015, 07:43 PM   #352
easyfnmoney
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

[QUOTE=0xRNG;47246047]- Multiple problems here. But it has potential[/url]

I agree with most everything you say... Disagree with a few. Sure, a bot could use OCR to get account information...But that only works if the bot is expecting to be asked such a question. Am I right? You could also ask the question a million different ways, such as... provide the last 4 of SSN.. backwards. If a bot requests assistance, staff monitoring the game would start to see the discrepancies, gather information about the client connected to the server, and further find ways to combat the botnet from connecting to the games via the information gathered.

How does a bot read a code from a hard token though? What if this hard token wasn't an RSA token, but a proprietary technology developed in house? In my OP, i mentioned that soft tokens wouldn't be allowed. Hell, in RSA soft tokens, you can simply click "Copy" with no OCR needed.

The purpose of my post was to get people thinking...

I think what we can agree on is that there are anti-botting solutions available... My point is.. they don't seem to be implemented anytime soon. Some solutions are more obvious than others.

My >8 figures number mostly stemmed from the "Army" i described that would be needed to monitor the games and run analysis, as well as my administrative changes that would need to take place to increase overall transparency.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:04 PM   #353
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by easyfnmoney View Post

I agree with most everything you say... Disagree with a few. Sure, a bot could use OCR to get account information...But that only works if the bot is expecting to be asked such a question. Am I right? You could also ask the question a million different ways, such as... provide the last 4 of SSN.. backwards. If a bot requests assistance, staff monitoring the game would start to see the discrepancies, gather information about the client connected to the server, and further find ways to combat the botnet from connecting to the games via the information gathered.
If asked too often, i would get really annoyed as a player. For bot i would just OCR it, have dictionary of solutions so i solve this once all bots can easily solve the challenge. regex and lookup bot profile info, easy.

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Originally Posted by easyfnmoney View Post
How does a bot read a code from a hard token though?
Worst case the same as a human does...ocr with webcam.
Quote:
Originally Posted by easyfnmoney View Post
The purpose of my post was to get people thinking...

I think what we can agree on is that there are anti-botting solutions available... My point is.. they don't seem to be implemented anytime soon. Some solutions are more obvious than others.

My >8 figures number mostly stemmed from the "Army" i described that would be needed to monitor the games and run analysis, as well as my administrative changes that would need to take place to increase overall transparency.
We just solved the bot issue, solution is called the antijackbot and it's simple super short games wich are also super hard for computers to solve. rake back is cut to zero and will be distributed over antijackbot.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:34 PM   #354
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

I have seen evidence that botters are running bots almost exclusively in VMs on the same PC that they are running Stars on. Apparently Stars can detect that there is a VM, but often cannot determine what is running within it. So Stars does things like look at stats, mouse behavior (or keyboard hotkey substitution for most mouse behavior), etc. And all that evaluation takes time. And then what happens? Here is a quote:
I solved captchas, used Hotkeys,havent used any screen scrapping method, they got me after a few months, they monitored every process running at task manager. They wrote they cant prove that I was botting, but I was too suspicios to let me play, they blocked my acc and let me to cash out.
The option of using a second PC to run the bot (via a split monitor signal) is almost never used because it is said to be more expensive (frame grabber and another PC) and would still require an interface back to the original PC to click buttons (or hotkeys).

Once again, if players were required to boot from a secure (strong encryption) poker operating system, that actually prevented non-approved software from running, bots would operate somewhere else. There are more details, but that is the headline.

Last edited by VP$IP; 06-14-2015 at 08:45 PM. Reason: and this is not the place for details
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:36 PM   #355
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Not sure why you would want to show any losers list. there's no need and can only be harmful.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:45 PM   #356
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP View Post
I have seen evidence that botters are running bots almost exclusively in VMs on the same PC that they are running Stars on. Apparently Stars can detect that there is a VM, but often cannot determine what is running within it. So Stars does things like look at stats, mouse behavior (or keyboard hotkey substitution for most mouse behavior), etc. And all that evaluation takes time. And then what happens? Here is a quote:
How about prohibiting the usage of VMs while playing poker?
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:48 PM   #357
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Bots are going to kill online poker. Even if they become detectable the annoyances to the players to prove they're human will become so great that rec. players will just give up...they want to have fun, and it won't be fun playing in the future. Bye bye online poker. GG.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:07 PM   #358
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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How about prohibiting the usage of VMs while playing poker?
I am in favor of that. They often rename the process and alter the size to mimic something innocuous.
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Old 06-14-2015, 09:37 PM   #359
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Originally Posted by ChoakMyDee View Post
Bots are going to kill online poker. Even if they become detectable the annoyances to the players to prove they're human will become so great that rec. players will just give up...they want to have fun, and it won't be fun playing in the future. Bye bye online poker. GG.
the strict anti-bot measures that should have been in place for years now would only be applied to winning regulars.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:06 AM   #360
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Originally Posted by easyfnmoney View Post
Thanks. If PokerStars really really really wanted to fix this problem... They could. My solutions are just solutions off the top of my head. Put me in a war room with other IT Security Professionals that love online poker and I'm sure we could come up with some sort of happy medium.

Here's additional thoughts:

Would my solutions piss of regulars? Probably

Would my solutions cost... >8 figures. For Sure

Would it bot-proof PokerStars? I can't say that for sure... but what I can say is...

PokerStars is certainly losing the battle now and they seem light years behind the botters. When botting is significantly more difficult, less people will try. With my solutions above, I could probably guarantee that more than 90% of the botters wouldn't be able to get around them. If they did, the poker community would catch them due to my reasons in point number 5.
They would piss regs off because option 1 is impractical, to say the least. What we really need are suggestions that show an understanding of the IT side as well as a sound understanding of the poker eco-system.

Last edited by MeleaB; 06-15-2015 at 12:16 AM.
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Old 06-15-2015, 12:11 AM   #361
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Originally Posted by Sh@i'tan View Post
the strict anti-bot measures that should have been in place for years now would only be applied to winning regulars.
Yes.

(And hopefully not the equivalent of the Nintendo up-up-down-down-left-right-left-right-B-A-start every time we want to view the flop cards, like that other guy suggested.)
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:07 AM   #362
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

http://www.iflscience.com/technology...logical-change
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Old 06-15-2015, 02:41 AM   #363
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

i have THE idea!

dont allow east europeans on some tables. you can restricted countries in some tournaments so they probably can do it in cashgame too.

imo, gold days will be back on 'anti east european' tables. a table full of british and canadians! can you imagine!
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:11 AM   #364
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Originally Posted by ArtyMcFly View Post
I couldn't get that to work so just went with the basic netstat.exe command.
Does this look about right?
hahaahah great
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:19 AM   #365
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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Originally Posted by DirkkDiggler View Post
i have THE idea!

dont allow east europeans on some tables. you can restricted countries in some tournaments so they probably can do it in cashgame too.

imo, gold days will be back on 'anti east european' tables. a table full of british and canadians! can you imagine!
I can imagine punching a whole in your face.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:33 AM   #366
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

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I can imagine punching a whole in your face.
I can imagine you struggling through life.

Spoiler:
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:40 AM   #367
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

What is the explanation for NLH players, many from Russia who:

Appear at small/midstakes. With no history of working up stakes.
Have W$WSF over 50, and Fold to Turn Cbet under 35.

Is it fair to rule out that new players are independently developing this strategy?

If so, either they are all learning from the same source (this source would likely have to be publicly known). Or they are being told what to do.
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Old 06-15-2015, 04:43 AM   #368
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by reziduer View Post
I can imagine punching a whole in your face.
I can imagine agreeing 100% with dirk....something drastic might need to happen. w/e it takes, banning countries, certain parts of the world ect ect...the bots have to go one way or another.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:01 AM   #369
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkkDiggler View Post
i have THE idea!

dont allow east europeans on some tables. you can restricted countries in some tournaments so they probably can do it in cashgame too.

imo, gold days will be back on 'anti east european' tables. a table full of british and canadians! can you imagine!
This is not about PLO bot ring but as east eurpean i cant stand that so wrong words.

I have better solution - why not PS ban all winning players from all over the globe so that way some fishes can start to win... Its partly true that some poor players kills micros and the rich one cant move so lets ban the poor one and the last one will play bigger games and donate money there. Why if the fishes want to play more bigger games the money should go to u? What u cant say to some rich players that play bigger games and are destroied way more faster then if the play smaller games and what about if thay want to win somehow?Better to go to play with another rich player at any stake so he can lose it again so PS have to ban all micro stakes or poor players or winning players...

Gold days will be when the more rich countries join the global players pool - Spain, France, Italy and USA.
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Old 06-15-2015, 05:12 AM   #370
heathen1
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

I think it's more about the fact that a lot of botters/cheaters come from that area of the world.It's nothing personal, im just calling it like I see it. If you ban this region, the amount of cheating and bots will decrease.Plus western countries deposit more so in the long run it would be a great thing for online poker.
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Old 06-15-2015, 06:01 AM   #371
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathen1 View Post
I can imagine agreeing 100% with dirk....something drastic might need to happen. w/e it takes, banning countries, certain parts of the world ect ect...the bots have to go one way or another.
WELL YOU know my country sux. I am from east europe. We have only one poker site left! Pokerstars.bg client which is the same but has no player to player transfer. I am no longer able to get any stacking opportunities.
Not only that but our RAKE is higher. I can make 5$/h playing nl5 zoom with 40 buy-ins almost risk free, the minimal wage here is 200$ a MONTH.
So yes you would prefer for me to be a real criminal!

p.s. I am cancer survivor and I don't get one cent from the State.

just saying.

Last edited by reziduer; 06-15-2015 at 06:06 AM. Reason: sorry for derail but: If your bot is +5bb/100 at PLO200 you can relocate easy!
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Old 06-15-2015, 07:28 AM   #372
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DirkkDiggler View Post
i have THE idea!

dont allow east europeans on some tables. you can restricted countries in some tournaments so they probably can do it in cashgame too.

imo, gold days will be back on 'anti east european' tables. a table full of british and canadians! can you imagine!
Quote:
Originally Posted by heathen1 View Post
I can imagine agreeing 100% with dirk....something drastic might need to happen. w/e it takes, banning countries, certain parts of the world ect ect...the bots have to go one way or another.
Start banning people based solely on prejudice and add the US which just happens to be the source of the biggest scams of online poker

Quote:
Originally Posted by heathen1 View Post
I think it's more about the fact that a lot of botters/cheaters come from that area of the world.It's nothing personal, im just calling it like I see it. If you ban this region, the amount of cheating and bots will decrease.Plus western countries deposit more so in the long run it would be a great thing for online poker.
Yeah people wish to play poker freely on their country but fuc that, as long as you can get your cut fuc other people, they are worthless anyway right? I wonder, why not apply the same logic to your concerns? Who cares about if u get fkd? See where im getting at or do you need a draft?

And how do you know western countries deposit more? Based on what, your opinion?
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Old 06-15-2015, 09:10 AM   #373
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

You think banning certain countries will help? What about vpns? What about people from countries where online poker is not legal renting computers from GB and playing on it via teamviewer or programs like that? Do some research on how many usa pros still play on euro networks and affiliates helping them. These are poker players not hackers. Now imagine what highly competent computer guys can do. Imo there is no simple solution on beating people that are intelligent enough to write winning bots and are that computer savvy.
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Old 06-15-2015, 11:28 AM   #374
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VP$IP View Post
I have seen evidence that botters are running bots almost exclusively in VMs on the same PC that they are running Stars on. Apparently Stars can detect that there is a VM, but often cannot determine what is running within it.
Can anyone provide a decent justification for why running VMs should be allowed?
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Old 06-15-2015, 01:40 PM   #375
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Re: News: Massive PLO bot ring on pokerstars. Millions of hands. Huge winners.

Ya I mean in the future the eastern Europeans countries will be banned. It's more and more turning into a game where western countries lose and eastern European countries win. When I stop playing professionally I'm going to try and push for a large western European segregation, but that was nothing to do with these bots.
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