Two Plus Two Publishing LLC Two Plus Two Publishing LLC
 

Go Back   Two Plus Two Poker Forums > >

Notices

News, Views, and Gossip For poker news, views, and gossip

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-31-2013, 11:34 AM   #1
DucyInTheSky
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 79
New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

I'd like to get some feedback on some rules to better online poker for the REC player. Its seems pretty obvious that in order for the overall poker ecology to thrive, there has to be a growing base of REC players. The current system of the sharks eating all the fish is detrimental to the game and not advisable for the long term. I realize that gearing games to the REC player may not be popular and will certainly take away many advantages the REG has come to expect. But, it seems that this is the way that site owners and regulators are heading. Here goes:

1- Ban on all HUDs and any software while playing
2- A 4 table limit per player per session
3- Random seat assignments
4- Restrictions on access to HH- only to investigate issues of cheating with a formalized investigatory process. Not for the purposes of studying opponents, analyzing play, or datamining.
5- Segregating players by win rate and stakes
6- Play under real name, IP verification, no VPNs.
DucyInTheSky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 11:52 AM   #2
FTWStrategy
grinder
 
FTWStrategy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 503
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Do you regularly read these forums? Very few people will be in favor of even a single idea you have presented.
FTWStrategy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 11:53 AM   #3
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 6,890
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

You are new here, so here is serious answer before you get flamed:

Quote:
1- Ban on all HUDs and any software while playing
While this idea is semi-reasonable there are two main objections:
-it's very difficult/impossible to enforce; people smart enough will get around it getting huge advantage over the field
-it would lead to less overall volume (see 2nd point)

Also there is another point. Poker is competitive game and as in chess/bridge/go/stock market doing your research is vital part of it. Actually many people enjoy this aspect o the game. It's science part of it, something which makes training/improving possible. It's huge magnet to those areas - you can improve if you are dedicated.

Quote:
A 4 table limit per player per session
While this would be fantastic for most players (and even for most pros) it would lead for less overall volume and higher winrates = bad for the sites so not gonna happen.

Quote:
3- Random seat assignments
Play ZOOM/RUSH or use table starter.

Quote:
4- Restrictions on access to HH- only to investigate issues of cheating with a formalized investigatory process. Not for the purposes of studying opponents, analyzing play, or datamining.
This is the same as 1. People smart enough would easily get around it (generating HH's on the fly while hand is played using separate computer so it's not detectable) gaining huge advantage. Besides reviewing your hh's and/or analysing the games is fun.

Quote:
5- Segregating players by win rate and stakes
You can do that but such regulations cause poker to lose it's huge appeal: possibility of making a killing/becoming a pro; you may just as well play roulette.

Quote:
Play under real name, IP verification, no VPNs
-Many people want to play anynomously.
-"IP verification" isnt' possible in many countries where majority of people get different IP every session from their ISP's
-Playing under your real name in a casino is one thing, playing on the internet where everybody, including your family/friends/enemies/neighbours, could see your results/habits/swings isn't really appealing for many people.

I get your sentiment. You are right to some extent - recreational players are at bad position these days, especially in predatory environment of standard ring games where they have no chance of playing vs other recreational players (so they have better opponents on average than pros). The solutions are many. Best two are:
-play ZOOM/RUSH
-play tournaments

Last edited by punter11235; 05-31-2013 at 11:59 AM.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 11:58 AM   #4
DucyInTheSky
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 79
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTWStrategy View Post
Do you regularly read these forums? Very few people will be in favor of even a single idea you have presented.
Read the title. This is not about whether you agree or not. Consider it a debate where you have to play devil's advocate and argue a position that you may not agree with. Put the grinder mentality aside, and ask what rules would best attract and keep a REC player. Thats it.
DucyInTheSky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:02 PM   #5
litlebullet
veteran
 
litlebullet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: circumventing the profanity filter
Posts: 3,457
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTWStrategy View Post
Do you regularly read these forums? Very few people will be in favor of even a single idea you have presented.
I hate to speak on account of the community but I kinda disagree here. Sentiment is slowly swinging in favor of, or at the very least, tolerance of these kind of ideas/ or threads. People see the current state of games and well some players realize the way things are going isn't sustainable and it seems like some form of incoming change is the new reality.
litlebullet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:02 PM   #6
DucyInTheSky
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 79
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
You are new here, so here is serious answer before you get flamed:
You are following into the trap that I discussed. I dont want this to be a REGs objection to rules improvement. I'd like people to take off the grinder hat and put on the REC hat and ask yourself, what rules would attract a REC player. I realize that it will make it more difficult for a REG to make money. That is not the issue that I want to get into at this point.

Last edited by DucyInTheSky; 05-31-2013 at 12:30 PM.
DucyInTheSky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:05 PM   #7
noobpoker
grinder
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: noobtown
Posts: 574
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

For #6 are you suggesting that people play under their actual name?

I think that would be a horrible idea and I have no idea how that would benefit recreational players lol
noobpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:06 PM   #8
LivingInAFakeWorld
newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 39
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by DucyInTheSky View Post
6- IP verification,
Great for the players who are living with other grinders.
LivingInAFakeWorld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:08 PM   #9
TakVifte
newbie
 
TakVifte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Scandalnavia
Posts: 14
In regards to rule nr 4. How is multitabling hurting rec's?
TakVifte is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:11 PM   #10
noobpoker
grinder
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: noobtown
Posts: 574
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

As a rec player,

1- Ban on all HUDs and any software while playing
I would dislike this

2- A 4 table limit per player per session
I wouldn't be opposed to this but this would be a horrible rule, would hurt traffic tremendously, cost site a lot more money than anything gained by the few recreationals joining because they only have 4 tables lol.

3- Random seat assignments
i would like this, but i think its implementation would be more complicated than you think.

4- Restrictions on access to HH- only to investigate issues of cheating with a formalized investigatory process. Not for the purposes of studying opponents, analyzing play, or datamining.
Would strongly dislike this. I think that if you look at the majority of cheating cases, they were brought up by posters on 2p2 and that's how they got outted. Without hand histories, we are left to the sites' security departments which for many of them are extremely lol. Not sure if any players would have received any of the 20m reimbursements from UB they received had it not been for 2p2 posters*

5- Segregating players by win rate and stakes
bad idea on multiple levels, as a recreational obviously i would like it in the short run but we have no idea how it would impact long run ecology and i would be more in favor of an ftp new to the game approach. kinda like a take off the training wheels type thing. segregating completely like party/revolution is doing is just bad from all perspectives.

6- Play under real name, IP verification, no VPNs.
nononono
noobpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:16 PM   #11
punter11235
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: solving poker
Posts: 6,890
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
You are following into the trap that I discussed
If you have read my answer you would see that all the objections I presented are universal/from sites point of view not from grinders/pros point of view.
punter11235 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:25 PM   #12
DucyInTheSky
enthusiast
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 79
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by punter11235 View Post
You are new here, so here is serious answer before you get flamed

While this idea is semi-reasonable there are two main objections:
-it's very difficult/impossible to enforce;


Not with the right software

-it would lead to less overall volume

Not if more REC players flock to a HUD free site

Also there is another point. Poker is competitive game and as in chess/bridge/go/stock market doing your research is vital part of it. Actually many people enjoy this aspect o the game. It's science part of it, something which makes training/improving possible. It's huge magnet to those areas - you can improve if you are dedicated.

The REC player is not interested in applying this type of level or study. Or competing with someone who does.


While this would be fantastic for most players (and even for most pros) it would lead for less overall volume and higher winrates = bad for the sites so not gonna happen.

Again the REC player does not want to play against a 24 tabler. It somewhat intimidating and unnerving.


This is the same as 1. People smart enough would easily get around it (generating HH's on the fly while hand is played using separate computer so it's not detectable) gaining huge advantage.

Not with the correct software.

Besides reviewing your hh's and/or analysing the games is fun.

The REC player wants to play the game off memory. Not against someone who is studying them like a final exam.


You can do that but such regulations cause poker to lose it's huge appeal: possibility of making a killing/becoming a pro; you may just as well play roulette.

Most people do not want to go pro. A REG grinder yes. In most levels of REC sports and competitions you play against people near your own skill level. I'd love to play golf with a good golfer at the club, but if we play for money then I'm using my handicap.

-Many people want to play anynomously.-

I want to do a lot of things anonymously. Too bad, life is full of sacrifices.

"IP verification" isnt' possible in many countries where majority of people get different IP every session from their ISP's

I'm speaking more about US-States regs.

-Playing under your real name in a casino is one thing, playing on the internet where everybody, including your family/friends/enemies/neighbours, could see your results/habits/swings isn't really appealing for many people.

With elimination of tracking software, its less of an issue. I think most RECs prefer transparency over anonymity.

I get your sentiment. You are right to some extent - recreational players are at bad position these days, especially in predatory environment of standard ring games where they have no chance of playing vs other recreational players (so they have better opponents on average than pros). The solutions are many.

I appreciate your responses. They were well thought out. I think you are approaching it from a REG perspective. There is no doubt that what I am proposing isnt good for the REGs. And I think the REGs need to realize, that the biggest untapped market is those folks with the most disposable income. And we know what that profile is. It isn't a 20 something in a dorm room who wants to be the next Jungleman. In some ways, that dream will be dead or much more difficult. But at the same time, the current situation is no longer viable nor profitable for casinos. They need a growing base of customers with disposable income, and the current rules of the game are keeping those players away.
DucyInTheSky is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:30 PM   #13
actionzip54
banned
 
actionzip54's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,858
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

As a professional troll, I would like to commend you DUCY. One of the best levels I have ever seen.

WELL. DONE
actionzip54 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:31 PM   #14
Go Get It
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Doesn't have a leg to stand on.
Posts: 11,431
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by DucyInTheSky View Post
You are following into the trap that I discussed. I dont want this to be a REGs objection to rules improvement. Take off the grinder hat and put on the REC hat and ask yourself, what rules would attract a REC player. I realize that it will make it more difficult for a REG to make money. That is not the issue.
Guy, you're asking for opinions, the guy gives you his and you basically tell him he's wrong... Take off you rec player hat and listen...
Go Get It is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:32 PM   #15
chinamaniac
Pooh-Bah
 
chinamaniac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: POKERBOOM
Posts: 3,672
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by DucyInTheSky View Post
I'd like to get some feedback on some rules to better online poker for the REC player. Its seems pretty obvious that in order for the overall poker ecology to thrive, there has to be a growing base of REC players. The current system of the sharks eating all the fish is detrimental to the game and not advisable for the long term. I realize that gearing games to the REC player may not be popular and will certainly take away many advantages the REG has come to expect. But, it seems that this is the way that site owners and regulators are heading. Here goes:

1- Ban on all HUDs and any software while playing
2- A 4 table limit per player per session
3- Random seat assignments
4- Restrictions on access to HH- only to investigate issues of cheating with a formalized investigatory process. Not for the purposes of studying opponents, analyzing play, or datamining.
5- Segregating players by win rate and stakes
6- Play under real name, IP verification, no VPNs.
1. I agree all huds should be banned. If I used one I would prob argue against this though

2. Tables should not be restricted

3. Seat Assignments should not be random

4. HH should always be available

5. Worst idea ever segregating anything. The beuty of poker is you can always play the best any time and beat them on any given day

6. sure
chinamaniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:34 PM   #16
robot_dox
centurion
 
robot_dox's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: spinning like fresh milk
Posts: 181
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

gee I know this seems radical, but how about just legalizing/regulating the game in the US & bathing prime time with TV ads, so that casual players feel it is safe/legal to come online & drop $1mil to me playing PLO?
robot_dox is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 12:59 PM   #17
g00t4life
banned
 
g00t4life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: On a pirate ship
Posts: 702
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by MMD View Post
Op is an idiot /thread
This

Quote:
Originally Posted by Go Get It View Post
Guy, you're asking for opinions, the guy gives you his and you basically tell him he's wrong... Take off you rec player hat and EAD...
FYP


If you don't want HUD's play on Bovado.
Don't want HH's play on Carbon.
Segregation....many sites are doing this.
What does it matter if someone plays on VPN?
4 table limit...play on your ipad
Random seats play in MTT's or SNG's

See OP these "improvements" are already in place but funny I don't see the rec players flocking to these sites. Did I mention EAD?
g00t4life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 01:01 PM   #18
DaycareInferno
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
DaycareInferno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 18,279
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

I'm pretty sure playing under a false name or location is already against the rules most places...
DaycareInferno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 01:08 PM   #19
Bictor Vlom
grinder
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 669
Smile Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Good post OP,

Hopefully the mods will eliminate the trolls and meme artists, who will attempt to derail the thread at all costs. And the smarta$$es with the personal attacks should simply return to their Mommy's basement or clean their rooms.

Whether people want to face it or not the current rules and regs are going to change, so its a great discussion point to have. The topic is

"New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players"

And not

"2+2 Grinders objection to OP and any suggestion to rules that will effect me, cost me money,kill my dream of becoming an online pro, and force me to move out of my parents house and get a real 9 to 5 job after i blew my tuition money". (edit: dripping with sarcasm)

So in that spirit. The REC player is simply the market that any site has to capture to be successful for the long term. The rake you make off of 20 something grinders who eat the fish is short term. You need to get the 30,40,50,60 something guy with a six figure plus salary, money in the bank, disposable income and some free time on his hands because he cant play in the rec league softball or basketball games anymore and his old lady wont boink him anymore. He needs a new hobby. Sorry to all of you who may not fit that profile, but its marketing 101. Capture that market and the money will flow for any site. But how do you get that market?

1- Make him learn and study about HUDS, HH, Sharkscope, software, and Phil Galfond training videos like the REGS. LOL! Forget it

2- Take all of those things away from the REGS by simplifying the game, so that he is on a level playing field? BINGO!!!

And if your site wont do it. Guess what, another one will!
Bictor Vlom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 01:16 PM   #20
Professionalpoker
 
Professionalpoker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Henderson of course.
Posts: 16,370
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by FTWStrategy View Post
Do you regularly read these forums? Very few people will be in favor of even a single idea you have presented.
Seeing as this is a gimmick account I would say yes,
Spoiler:
Professionalpoker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 01:19 PM   #21
LastLife
Pooh-Bah
 
LastLife's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 4,549
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

1 is reasonable, though it should be ban any software that isn't available through the site and free to the user. If everyone has a HUD, then everyone is on the same playing field. Rec players skill levels would grow much faster because they could see exactly how the winning players are playing.

2 is bad all around. More tables for pros means lower win rates and more options for Rec players.

3 is solid.

4 is so/so. If you play in a hand, you should be allowed to collect that information. However, people should not be allowed to data mine and purchase hands from people that they never played with.

5 is bad. If you are a Rec player, then you should know that you aren't going to beat mid-high stakes. Stakes/table limits are segregation. The problem is a rec player making 100k/year might not want to play for pennies. That shouldn't be a pros fault. Getting rid of HUDs/bumhunting/datamining would also make rec players balances last longer.

6 is terrible. There are enough scams on the Internet without people posting their name on a public poker site.
LastLife is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 01:29 PM   #22
mgh87
journeyman
 
mgh87's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 216
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by DucyInTheSky View Post
I'd like to get some feedback on some rules to better online poker for the REC player. Its seems pretty obvious that in order for the overall poker ecology to thrive, there has to be a growing base of REC players. The current system of the sharks eating all the fish is detrimental to the game and not advisable for the long term. I realize that gearing games to the REC player may not be popular and will certainly take away many advantages the REG has come to expect. But, it seems that this is the way that site owners and regulators are heading. Here goes:

1- Ban on all HUDs and any software while playing
2- A 4 table limit per player per session
3- Random seat assignments
4- Restrictions on access to HH- only to investigate issues of cheating with a formalized investigatory process. Not for the purposes of studying opponents, analyzing play, or datamining.
5- Segregating players by win rate and stakes
6- Play under real name, IP verification, no VPNs.
Here's an idea how you buy a HUD, read some books and study your hh to improve your game rather then handicap others. Thee suggestions are clearly made by a losing player
mgh87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 01:41 PM   #23
caspermatic
adept
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 810
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

A rec player doesn't want to play against 24-tablers because it slows the game down to a crawl and removes any fleeting social aspect of the game. Anything that can be done to improve that experience for a rec player should be.
caspermatic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 01:46 PM   #24
bbfg
Carpal \'Tunnel
 
bbfg's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 11,456
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Most of these ideas are even terrible for recreationals:

1- Ban on all HUDs and any software while playing

Recs like software too, especially services like Sharkscope etc that should be considered as software too. Also, recs like that poker is a skill game. No HUDs=less skill

2- A 4 table limit per player per session

I know recs that can 10 table. And they like it.

3- Random seat assignments

Recs love to **** on certain regs.
4- Restrictions on access to HH- only to investigate issues of cheating with a formalized investigatory process. Not for the purposes of studying opponents, analyzing play, or datamining.

Lol and who's going to be the judge of that? The pokersite? **** off, protect both the rec and the reg and make them available.

5- Segregating players by win rate and stakes

Recs like playing with good players. Also, recs get better by playing with better players, which is essentially what a rec generally is (paying $ so he can get good at poker)

6- Play under real name, IP verification, no VPNs.

I don't think IP verification means what you think it means
bbfg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-31-2013, 01:54 PM   #25
RonMexico
Pooh-Bah
 
RonMexico's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 4,323
Re: New Rules to Better Online Poker for REC players

Quote:
Originally Posted by Professionalpoker View Post
Seeing as this is a gimmick account I would say yes,
Spoiler:
So the person behind this account doesn't believe these things (an actual level), or it's just some troll that reposts this same **** over and over under different accounts? If it's the latter, can you out the name(s)?
RonMexico is offline   Reply With Quote

Reply
      

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2008-2017, Two Plus Two Interactive
 
 
Poker Players - Streaming Live Online