Joe, thank you for the link. The issue I have is that current ownership wants to point at the old Excapsa bloc and say that all the evil was there, but this simply is not so, and I am aware of legal maneuverings going on in Europe connected to the AP side of things. This is stuff that is still in process so I can't say much more on it.

I will also say this: I have been in indirect contact with Paul (through Kat Farrell) yesterday and today regarding a document that I will publish in Vol. 31. There is a line in the correspondence that grates on me about "you know this information was obtained illegally" or some such. UB wants to claim the high ground in this, so I have asked Kat/Paul to provide me the names of the "authorities" they worked with in conjunction with the KGC as the scandal was audited and the findings was prepared. I've also asked for the name of the OIJ official Paul claims to have communicated with, and I will happily forward the anonymous e-mail I received on to both of them. At the same time I'll forward the thing on to the FBI and the SDNY DoJ, now that we have reasonable confirmation that the information within is real and not faked.

In short, I'm calling your masters' bluff and I'm doing it publicly.

There are rumors afoot that the "authorities" the findings went to were nothing more than telling the story to a brother-in-law of a KGC/MIT worker, with said brother-in-law being on the Mohawk tribal police force. Technically I guess the wording would then be true but we can see it as pure sham if so. I'm not asserting that this is true, but I certainly want to know. Either way, I think it's time we learned the full extent of this.

hi joe,

would be interested to hear some substantial (read: not diluted) responses to mookman's post #94, and haralabob's post #102.

i have a lot of questions myself, but cmon we both know you are incapable of any real dialogue on the matter.

also, you keep acting like there is this overall negative perception about 2+2 in the "real poker world". there isn't. and you probably know that, but if you are just basing it on your insular surroundings and your friends and actually believe it, please realize that you are pretty off the mark.

i don't have a master, haley, just fyi. i think that the more information that you bring out the better. i would caution you to understand that ub and the kgc are two seperate entities though. i'm not sure if we can take full responsibility if kgc did or didn't do something. i'm sure you will cite this as covering for ub, but i'm merely speaking the truth here.

already answered bob's post and i'm quite sure that mook's will be beyond me in terms of detail.

i can't imagine why people wouldn't feel comfortable here, snaggle. aren't you the guy who lied about the hand that i played at the bike 3-4 years ago and tweets at me assorted swears and threats, as well as your insult above?

i guess we can just agree to disagree about who lives in the "real poker world".

No, you didn't. You state in an email to mookman that UB provided several account names along with personal information. There is absolutely no reason the company can release this info and not release the additional information required to clear or prosecute said individuals. You have login, table and financial info, you have iovation data. You work for UB and you state UB released the names, addresses, account numbers etc on the Makars, Novinskey, Saccavino, DiGioia, Bajayo and Curtis; clearly personal information from company servers in a document produced by an IDS employee.

That you then felt it necessary to massage the data with chops is bizarre. You want the community to perceive you knocked around HQ and and dug up these names, but in fact your company decided to release them without enough corroborating information in hopes the world would move on. Until you correct this, your word as an employee representative of the Cereus brand means little, irrespective of who you get to help tell the official story.

There will come a post in which I will refute the Cereus/KGC separation in this matter as well, and it goes to the nature of the lists that Paul used you to leak. They had to have worked together. I don't think you were anything but vastly naive in this, Joe, but you have been so notified as of now.

ok, this is the last aguiar thing i'll address. i wasn't threatening to disclose anything. my wording was very poor and i apologized for that. yes, i was referencing something specific. no, it wasn't blackmail. i was saying "hey man, we all have stuff that we don't want talked about, like x" as i said, my wording was beyond terribad.

Joe, since you seem to really care about helping turn UB around and change people's perception of them, I'd love for you to respond to this post:

I think it's a very valid question. And furthermore,

I mean, 2+2's goal isn't to convince Joe Sebok to renounce his support of UB, it's to find everyone who was involved in the cheating (which seems to be something you/UB want as well, based on your statements here). Your position as a UB pro obviously gives you a lot more power to help make that happen; if you want to help, don't be the guy that listens to proof that already speaks for itself, help us find that proof.

For as long as Paul avoids any kind of dialogue with the community (see HocusPokus' post above), and we get threads like CEREUS representative might actually show up on 2+2 (and then they don't), people are going to continue to think the UB brand is a joke. Everything about UB trying to find the cheaters sounds like nothing more than patronizing lip service.

as always, haley, i welcome your info. i have no axe to grind with you. you are leagues more knowledgable about this stuff than i am.

i think this is very valid and i would be happy if paul came and discussed more about this stuff. i think some of the problem lies in the fact that many of you automatically think that i am lying or he is lying, so it makes it tough. if we can't start on a common ground, then it gets super difficult to discuss this stuff, but i will urge him to, for sure.

we would all be much more likely to answer questions in that kind of situation. i'm just going out on a limb here, in hopes it can do some good, against most advice i've been given. i'm hopeful tho.

i wanted to stay away from this stuff and simply take the high road by apologizing, but i guess i will point something out:

i never asked jon to "stop talking about ub" in any kind of a blanket sense. i asked him to stop bringing it into the Prah/Ike debate as none of that had anything to do with ub. i would never make a plea to someone to stop talking about ub. that would be pretty pathetic, imo. i was trying to keep it above the belt and got involved, which was a mistake. he knows exactly what i was asking him to do, which is why i was so disappointed in turning this into a circus.

he also never felt that i blackmailed him. i don't believe that for one second. i made an off the cuff comment to someone i know, btw. jon's not a stranger to me. he took it and ran with it in an attempt to blow it up. it obv worked.

at any rate, i'm kinda over this whole thing with aguiar. i think i've said my peace there and apologized for my hand in it.

I do not think my question is beyond you in terms of detail. My post was as simple as I could make it and included proof as to why I thought it or asked. 1. You said UB covered up somethings, Paul said they didn't. What was covered up then? 2. Paul said money left the AP site, but there seems to be evidence to the contrary. 3. UB said they want all the information to come out, but yet they have plenty of info they could release as well.

I guess when and if you have time to go over the detail and answer my questions, or ask Paul to answer them that would be great. Here is the link b/c you chose not to respond to any of it the first time and just call it too detailed.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...1&postcount=94

That's a fair reason to be worried, but that can't change if Paul/CEREUS avoid any kind of presence/communication on 2+2 - that avoidance really only makes the problem worse.

You coming here and starting a dialogue w/ us through this thread isn't that dissimilar of a situation, and I think doing that and apologizing to Jon is a good thing.

You're out of line. In Sebok's apology he says that he was not actually threatening to reveal anything about JA or his girlfriend. He says it was just a poor choice of words (ie he meant that we all have done things we are not proud of.).

Minutes later he snaps back at JA and confirms to the whole world that there indeed was some piece of information that JA would not want to get out about his girlfriend. Thus implicating her in some sort of wrongdoing without getting into any detail.

That's pretty LOL to me.

i wish more of you would read things a little more critically. several of you literally just repeat the same thing over, after i have answered them.

mook, can throw your post in an email and shoot it to me, pls? you have the address. i will look into it.

i think many of you are forgetting what i try to be here. i am trying to be a conduit for information. i never professed that i would have all the answers, in fact i have said quite the opposite. i just want to help people to get those answers, if we can. i'm not going to be a prime resource for all the cheating info. i could never touch the amount of time that haley, mook, etc have put into it. if you guys want to insult me for that or call me names, that's your prerogative, but i will remain here, attempting to get things to come out. maybe i am naive, but i'll keep trying.

Let me know the conditions under which Paul will participate in a written, public dialogue with respected members of the poker community and I will personally see to it that it comes together.

Let me try again, I know I'm not as popular within your firm as others, but a reply would be nice.

On Feb 8, 2010 you (at the time, an employee/contractor of UB) emailed two documents to Mookman5 which were produced inhouse at IDS (UB customer support company) containing internal, confidential UB account information. In the email, you stated

"this isn't coming from KGC, this is coming from UB"

An example of the data:
Dennis Novinskey - Acct#12955 - 1244 woodcrest cir., Bloomfield Hills, MI 48304, 248-844-0876 (information is no longer correct/pertinent, subject has moved and phone# is now disconnected, should be fine to post)
Screennames - dannyboy55

I don't believe Novinskey was even mentioned prior to this, yet you provided accurate personal information (for the time) along with his UB account#. Because you were implicating him and others as fraudsters, the information could fetch a legal response and you would be personally on the hook. This suggests you had knowledge of information which implicated Mr. Novinskey along with assurances from your employer you would not take any legal fall. Additional names include Saccavino, the Makar family, DiGioia, Bajayo and Curtis.

Why is this critical? Because if you provide information on these names; login/logout, table joins/observes, financial details, screenname changes and iesnare screens, we will have hard evidence of the cheating which can be brought to the FBI for processing. From there, it shouldn't be hard to get a lower ranking member of the conspiracy to seek immunity and turn on the leaders. A low level IDS employee (brainwashdodo) was able to access far more account information with relative ease. Surely you and Mr. Leggett have access to the full account details, no?

So, I'll ask again. How can you release confidential company administrative information on these people suggesting they are guilty and not provide the balance of information which proves their guilt?

just a minor derail but i want to address joe seboks lies in this post:

point *1*
-i never lied about anything. joe, of course, was the liar. he lied on his public radio show. he called me a liar. i proved him wrong of course:
-this is the thread in question and that is the post in which i provided proof i was correct. boring cliffs:
-thread about sebok being terrible
-i post anecdote about completely terrible sebok hand at my table i witnessed
-joe lies about the hand
-joe calls me a liar publicly
-i prove him wrong, as evidenced above
-joe never apologizes (obv) and then calls me a liar in this thread! (lol)


point *2*
-i have never made any sort of threatening tweet towards joe sebok.

-i have called him a douche and a liar on this forum.

-the following are my only tweets referencing joesebok lifetime:
and
no threats whatsoever. so what are you talking about?

nice to see you can't even manage to keep from lying in this thread.

now, get back to practicing avoidance on literally every legitimate question in this thread.

you are morally bankrupt.

Joe, I am not trying to gang up on you here, and hope you take this as an objective viewpoint instead of me trying to trip you up, but...


Well if you are then.....


Essentially, you don't have anything to offer 2+2. You freely admit that you don't have answers to the questions the users are asking. And even admit it in a further paste from the original post I quoted:


I like the fact that you came here to apologize for the tweet. You probably should have just done it in that thread. Instead you came in creating a new thread willing to answer questions, but having no answers. It's really going to do nothing but feed the frenzy and make you look bad. There's no real benefit for us or you to come on here willing, but unable to answer questions.

If you really want to help, talk to ike, figure out a format where you can get Paul or someone who can provide real answers come on here in some form of moderated thread to provide detailed information on the questions people are asking. That is the best possible thing you can do for UB, and for your own personal reputation.

Thanks for listening.

Well I think Todd is talking about the questions he asked as followup questions to Paul's Interview, that took place in October 2009, but Paul never really answered them.

Here is part 1 from Todd Terry

Here is Part 2 from Todd Terry

Another Good post from Todd

Paul had plenty of time to address these but did not. Todd's questions were raised in 2009 in a thread about Paul's Interview, which did not take any of the followup questions that were asked after the interview.

I also realized I screwed up in my post #94, and meant to include this link from PokerRoad as a followup to Paul's response to Uri Kozai. http://www.pokerroad.com/forums/117630-post77.html

I like everything you wrote, Ray. However, it is this point -- which has resurfaced in this thread several times -- that continues to pique my interest.

a) what is the likelihood that this might happen?
b) who should compose the panel of "authorized" questioners?

I feel like one of the last people who still likes Joe Sebok but even I get pretty frustrated by his inability to provide information in his recent podcast interviews (e.g. The Rabbit Hunt on Cardrunners) or in this thread. Enough with the "I don't know" answers from someone who is by his own admission under-informed about the scandal. It's about time Leggett stepped up and faced the poker nation in an interactive manner -- that is, one that allows for follow-up. So far, the closest he has come is by fielding listener-submitted questions. We know what happens: Leggett dodges these shots in a manner that would impress Patches O'Houlihan, and we are left unsatisfied.

MJ and Adam had Leggett as an interview guest on the PokerCast during the 2008 WSOP. Adam indicated that he'd like to bring him back as a follow-up. With the amount of information that has come to light in the two-plus years since this appearance, combined with an abundance of new questions, perhaps this site's own podcast could provide such an arena for such a conversation.

Its not a full 3rd party audit but its a start...

http://www.pokerroad.com/forums/open...bets-dept.html

agree with this, and the more i hear and learn the worse it gets for ub/ap. I think you should take a step back joe- then present them with a few easy questions/requests, which if they are answered will prove you to be at least somewhat right, and if they aren't will give you plenty of reason to leave.

to start:

1) Do any former owners of ub/ap still own pieces of cereus (obviously the answer is yes)- which? There are reasons they may not want this public- but you should still personally be able to find out.

2) Who was deciding that there should be 'hidden' shills in a 2p2 thread? (this is a bad thing, but wouldnt be a huge deal- if not for coming from a company who was exposed cheating people by the same community. Seems logical that whoever was requesting that has very shady ties.)

im sure haley and mookman could supply a few more. What happened to all the hands, when it happened etc would all be good also.

im with ike if it was done in a reasonable way- i doubt that though.

edit: and btw obv, 3rd party audit if they really are legit.

Here ya go. A voice of reason amid some of this rabble.

Joe, go ask Paul to disclose to you the stockholders of Avoine. There are at least seven Americans in there. If Paul refuses to disclose this information to you I believe you have your answer.