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Old 03-22-2011, 07:15 PM   #1
JSebok
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My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments (Best of)

After a ton of deliberation and chatting with friends, one being Shane Schleger, and reading through some of the pages of this thread, I feel like itís time to clear the air on the Jon Aguiar incident as best I can, as well as address some UB-related comments. I have been told repeatedly that this is a complete mistake by most, but I am going to try and give 2+2 more credit than some others would, and depend on you all to give me a fair shake and interpret objectively...

AGUIAR
First of all, I take full responsibility that my initial DM was overly aggressive and out of line. For that I apologize.


When I signed on with UB almost two years ago, I saw it as an opportunity to help turn a company around. I've been called everything from naive to a douche for thinking I could help change the company and the perception there, but I still feel like I have done my best, and am still making positive steps with UB. I have put a ton of work into those efforts. And because I have, I take the continued knocks against UB personally. Sometimes I act or say things in reaction that I wish I could take back. And given the way Aguiar was bashing UB with the Prahlad/Ike incident, even though it had nothing to do with UB, I reacted quickly and made a bad decision. No escaping that.


Now, did I view that DM to Jon as private? Absolutely. Do I think taking a private message and asking for a public apology is strange? That's irrelevant. I shouldnít have sent it, plain and simple. Jon made his decisions after that, and over 700+ posts later, here we are.


All Iíll add to this is that in no way, shape, or form was that message an attempt to blackmail Jon or threaten him, and I don't believe he thought that legitimately for one second. I was not telling him I was literally going to expose skeletons in his closet, albeit my choice of words was obviously dreadful in that regard. I just wanted him to chill out on UB and realize that the company had nothing to do with the current disagreement between Prahlad/Ike. I just chose a bad way of expressing that. Given that I tweeted to ďbe a manĒ about it Iím sure didnít help things either. Iím pretty sure most people who know me know Iím not the street fighting type, and I wasnít asking Jon to come meet me there. I was understandably upset that he posted a private message in a public forum, and I wanted him to talk to me privately about it. I also feel that he has actively publicly misrepresented the situation when he knew better after that, but that's neither here nor there. My initial written post was a complete breakdown of all the ways that he had done so, but that just continues to fuel this fire and doesn't get us anywhere productive at all, so I scrapped it.

In summary, I made a mistake and I apologize for that mistake. If Jon feels that he owes anyone an apology, I'll leave that up to him to decide.


UB
With Travis Makar going on Donkdown (which, despite my personal feelings about them, I think they did a good job handling) and Haleyís most recent blog on Greg Pierson, thereís been a lot of new chatter on UB. Just wanted to state/reiterate a few things on 2+2:

1. Iíve never said that the current management group didnít make some dire mistakes in their handling of the cheating scandal in the early stages, before I came on board. They did, and they know it. I simply do not believe that they a) actively helped the individuals who cheated to do so or get away with it, b) have doctored hand histories themselves to cover things up, or c) have attempted to hide facts to pay less money out in refunds.


The company was tailspinning after the scandal, and weíve had to dig ourselves out of a huge hole. Mistakes were made early on. But weíve been doing our best to win back support of the 2+2Ďers and others who, rightfully, abandoned the company back in í07.


On that note, we have no doubt that there is way more information about the scandal thatís out there. And we want that information to come out. We want Haley to keep digging. We want Travis Makar to release everything he has. We will do nothing to stand in the way of this information from coming out. From my perspective, I donít think the company will ever be able to 100% totally move forward until it does. And I, as well as management, personally hope it does.


2. UB management has never attempted to control what I say or when I say it. In fact, just the opposite. Itís one of the things I respect most about them. They have allowed me to make my own decisions. Maybe itís not the best PR for them all the time, but I can make my own mistakes.


3. Regardless of your opinion of UB right now, please keep in mind that "making mistakes" (be it with the initial response to the scandal or even the ridiculous security lapse that happened last year) is far different then "helping cheaters cheat.Ē None of our pros were ever connected to the scandal. None of our management was part of the scandal. But we keep taking all the bullets, despite many people who were likely connected to either being a super-user, which is just disgusting and something that will forever be a black eye for us, or cover-up rarely get flamed to the level we do. It's your right to do it. I understand why you do it, but we're not the cheaters. We were not involved in the scandal in any way. Nor was our current management.


4. And yes, I believe that the current ownership is different from the former ownership. I have also heard constant claims that this is not so. Again, any proof of these claims would be great to see if it exists. I don't believe that it does. Of course, I am putting a great deal of faith in the current owners/management with making these claims, but that's what most of us do with our employers, and I am doing the same. Obviously if this were ever to be proven to be not true, I would feel duped.


Thanks for taking the time to read through this. 2+2 was instrumental in bringing the AP and UB super-user scandals to light and have helped continue to bring up new information over the past few years, and we are all indebted because of that. I do believe that UB should have a presence on this forum. On that note, I will try to answer questions or concerns that continue to pop up on UB when I am alerted to them. I can't promise I will become an active member of this community, but when issues arise that are reasonable, I will try and answer them.

Cheers,
J
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:28 PM   #2
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

I just want to say thanks to Joe for doing this.

He had plenty of natural reluctance to come on this forum, but I implored him to do it on the basis that I believe this is a respectful and productive online community.

I think his being willing to come on here and talk to us is a major first step in repairing relations between Joe, UB and the poker community, and as I've said I think everyone benefits from that.

Please don't prove me wrong, NVG.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:29 PM   #3
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

no question that working with UB has harmed my personal rep, brand, etc. the bottom line is that i don't believe most of what is currently said about them and no one has ever been able to show me anything that proves it.

i came on board to try and help the company and rehabilitate it back to health. if i leave now it would just be because i was run off without any proof. you could fault my decision for getting involved initially, but i think leaving now just because of of the heat i deal with would be far worse.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:35 PM   #4
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

i encourage everyone to read Haley's latest "just conjecturin'" post. it's not like i can personally go and examine the servers and understand if hands are missing or not, but it's very reasonable to believe the previous regime deleted some in order to protect certain individuals that may (or may not) have been part of the scandal.

http://haleyspokerblog.blogspot.com/
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:38 PM   #5
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

you seem to have more facts than i do. i wish i was as sure about how everything went down as you seem to be. i actually wish that i knew much more than i do, altho i am proud of the pieces we have been able to put together, much of it with the help of member of 2+2 obv.

can't say it's perfect by any stretch, but i do think we know much more now than we used to.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:40 PM   #6
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by JSebok View Post
it's not like i can personally go and examine the servers and understand if hands are missing or not, but it's very reasonable to believe the previous regime deleted some in order to protect certain individuals that may (or may not) have been part of the scandal.

http://haleyspokerblog.blogspot.com/
Well what can you do? What things have you done?

I'm surprised you believe the company agrees with your stance about the whole truth coming out being good for them long term when they have repeatedly shown otherwise.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:43 PM   #7
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

I notice you still refuse to address the inclusion of my girlfriend in this all, it's a huge point to just ignore in such a lengthy thought out response.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:45 PM   #8
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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I notice you still refuse to address the inclusion of my girlfriend in this all, it's a huge point to just ignore in such a lengthy thought out response.
jon, i am perfectly happy to let everyone know why i brought up your gf. that's your call. you know exactly why i mentioned her.

that's your business.

also wanted to add that by posting our private message publicly that you have brought her into this publicly, not i. i feel very badly for any stress that it may have caused her. i would probably think if you want to keep pushing it.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:49 PM   #9
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by JSebok View Post
jon, i am perfectly happy to let everyone know why i brought up your gf. that's your call. you know exactly why i mentioned her.

that's your business.
LOL, awesome that he's threatening to reveal stuff about Jon's girlfriend in the apology thread.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:50 PM   #10
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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LOL, awesome that he's threatening to reveal stuff about Jon's girlfriend in the apology thread.
Well um, Jon kind of asked him to in a roundabout way?

Come on Todd, you're one of the respected posters on here, don't start trolling. Ask serious questions or gtfo imo.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:51 PM   #11
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by Gunner171 View Post
Any update on your quest for the missing handhistories?
Quote:
Originally Posted by billstraightener View Post
just post the ****** hand histories already

We have gained nothing from this post, except the usual politician style speech apologising with no real substance
I wouldn't count on them....ever.
http://www.pokerroad.com/forums/open...bets-dept.html

This of course isn't on Joe but I'm sure the blame will once again fall on him as the public figure head.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:52 PM   #12
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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LOL, awesome that he's threatening to reveal stuff about Jon's girlfriend in the apology thread.
maybe you can start to think about why some people have certain thought about 2+2 with a comment like this.
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Old 03-22-2011, 07:59 PM   #13
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by JustASpectator View Post
Joe, do you know anything about the scandal that hasn't been made public? For instance, names of people involved with the cheating in some way that haven't been made public?
i do not. i wish i had more to release. i really do. we uncovered many names in the wickedchops piece we did, http://wickedchopspoker.com/the-ulti...candal-part-i/

i think part of the problem is that people want the names to be sexier perhaps? Annie, Phil, etc, but we never found anything to support that. we released everything that we did find.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:01 PM   #14
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Fatal Error,
What Joe did may have been innappropriate, but you're blowing it out of proportion. He's apologized to you, your girlfriend has been unaffected, noone (most of the community, i mean) here even knows her name and if you never told her about this, she will never in her life hear about it.
I think you're using 2p2's hate for UB to snowball your reputation here but honestly dude, he's apologized to you and handling it the way you did is extremely nit picky and arrogant. This isn't the jersey shore and we don't have to "come at me bro" every dude that says something about your girlfriend.

This thread should be more about UB, and less about this retarded blown out of proportion tweet.
def agree. whole point of this is to open up communication about ub, not continue to hem over this tweetwar, imo.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:04 PM   #15
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by shaniac View Post
Well um, Jon kind of asked him to in a roundabout way?

Come on Todd, you're one of the respected posters on here, don't start trolling. Ask serious questions or gtfo imo.
I asked a ton of serious questions about UB on the PokerRoad forum a very long time ago. They were never answered. Can we start with those?


Edit: And my read on what Joe wrote about Jon's girlfriend in this thread is spot on.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:06 PM   #16
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by Todd Terry View Post
I asked a ton of serious questions about UB on the PokerRoad forum a very long time ago. They were never answered. Can we start with those?


Edit: And my read on what Joe wrote about Jon's girlfriend in this thread is spot on.
i'm always happy to attempt to answer anything reasonable, todd. with your particulars though, i doubt i will know those answers. a better person to have answer them would be paul.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:07 PM   #17
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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I asked a ton of serious questions about UB on the PokerRoad forum a very long time ago. They were never answered. Can we start with those?
Well you could at least TRY to start with those instead of starting with a post with "LOL."

Joe is on foreign terrain here, a new member to the forum, we can afford a modicum of respect in order to hopefully create a baseline for communication.

Not sure why you didn't just post your question instead of posting a diss...this isn't PokerRoad forums, this is 2p2, and a fresh start for a thread on the issue, so you should post those questions anyway.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:08 PM   #18
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by Gullanian View Post
Joe I'd really appreciate an answer to my question before you exit saying that you can't cope on here or something:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&postcount=34
i don't know anything about any of this that you are talking about, just fyi. i am not a fan of paying people to post, etc on sites, altho i know that many sites, in and out of poker, do it. it's not my particular taste tho.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:12 PM   #19
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

Joe in a recent interview you did with Pokerstatic you said "They (current UB) panicked, they tried to cover it up.........We should not have covered it up."

Paul Leggett said this in an interview with Pocketfives on 7-31-08

Quote:
With regards to covering anything up, There has never been any cover-up in our investigation
So what exactly did UB do to try to cover it up? Some details would be nice.

In the same Leggett interview, he said

Quote:
Weíve collected a massive amount of evidence, Like IP addresses that access the cheating tool, the transfers, withdrawl records, names, addresses, statements we have taken from people
Any chance any of this evidence will come forward? Or is the company only willing to let evidence come up from a different channel, like Makar or people sending stuff to Haley?

Leggett gave an interview produced by Tokwiro on the AP Scandal.

Quote:
Paul - Yes it was one person that perpetrated the cheating......

Paul - We were actually able to recover 100% of it. The money actually never left our site. It was never withdrawn off the actual pokesite in the accounts that won the money

Susan - So it stayed in the accounts?
Paul L Ė That correct. The poker accounts on Absolute Poker still had the money they has won from the cheating, so we were able to recover the money
From screenshots Haley was sent, it appears money did leave the site.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ZtNem8584n...0/scottom6.jpg
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ZtNem8584n.../graycat-2.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ZtNem8584n.../graycat-4.jpg

How can these cashouts be explained? Also the one person doing he cheating also doesn't seem to make sense.

Quote:
The story with the IP address is that the perpetrator, in his full report of what had occurred, stated that he used this IP address that was linked to Scott Tomís office I guess you would call it, and the reporting application used to cheat only allows access from specific IP addresses, itís actually restricted. So the perpetrator had stated that he used this IP address in order to gain access to use this tool to perpetrate the cheating and I guess itís how Scott Toms name has been dragged into this.
From Haley's blog Just Conjecturin', Volume 11: Meanwhile, Over at Absolute Poker, It Seems Scott Tom Really Did It or the thread on 2+2 about Scott Tom AP/UB -- PotRipper Backstory Fully Exposed and other stories

It seems Scott Tom name was "dragged into this" b/c he was guilty. Why is Paul/Cereus protecting the AP cheaters?

ElevenGrover has blogged a lot about the matter as well. His Loss Reports blogs raise some good questions.

Paul Leggett said this about the refund analysis by Uri Kozai, yet at the time neither mentioned missing HH's

Quote:
His analysis (Uri Kozai) was nowhere near as thorough as ours. He simply reviewed the work we did and was satisfied that our analysis was accurate. It is untrue that he developed the refund methodology that we used.
Here is a post I made on PokerRoad that contains a link to Uri explaining his methodology. Seems it was pretty thorough to me.

I could go on and on pointing out the flaws in Leggett's interviews and blogs, but these are some main things I had questions on. Esp. Scott Tom, since you yourself Joe thought he was guilty, but it wasn't an official company response.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:12 PM   #20
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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i'm always happy to attempt to answer anything reasonable, todd. with your particulars though, i doubt i will know those answers. a better person to have answer them would be paul.
I asked for Paul to answer them when I posted them in 2009.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:16 PM   #21
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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4. And yes, I believe that the current ownership is different from the former ownership. I have also heard constant claims that this is not so. Again, any proof of these claims would be great to see if it exists. I don't believe that it does. Of course, I am putting a great deal of faith in the current owners/management with making these claims, but that's what most of us do with our employers, and I am doing the same. Obviously if this were ever to be proven to be not true, I would feel duped.


Cheers,
J
I don't think anyone with a brain should / would think that the former owners of UB (russ hamilton, greg pierson, matloubi etc) are the current owners of the new UB+AP.

You remember the AP cheating scandal right, the T high call down, and the blatant cheating that went on at that site for a number of years - the issue isn't that the old UB now owns the new AP+UB, the issue is that the old AP, you know the ones that funded their entire operation on the premise that cheating their customers was a good way to generate revenue - these are the guys that now own the new UP+AP.

I think its convenient that you keep on stating that you don't think that the old UB owners are still involved or own AP+UB, but answer this if you would -

Do you think the Montana guys, the old original owners of AP - do you think they have any ownership or involvement in the new UB/AP company.

I have never heard you or anyone involved with the company state whether or not this was the case - and if this was the case would you still feel "duped"?
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:17 PM   #22
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by SrslySirius View Post
How can you defend the company and claim to make efforts to clean it up when you don't even know about relatively small things like this? Do you have any insight whatsoever into how the company is run, or are you just a mouthpiece?
i wish that i could possibly know everything that happens at ub, but that just isn't possible. i am a sponsored pro who has attempted to get as involved in the business as i can. i don't think it's fair to think i could know every detail about how the company is run.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:18 PM   #23
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by JSebok View Post
i don't know anything about any of this that you are talking about, just fyi. i am not a fan of paying people to post, etc on sites, altho i know that many sites, in and out of poker, do it. it's not my particular taste tho.
Super weak. If you're going to fob off questions like that with the old "well I don't like it myself", combined with the playground "everyone else does it" then it's hardly worth bothering with this. We're not talking about what you're a fan of or what everyone else does, you're here to justify the actions of your employer. Can you do it or not ?
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:20 PM   #24
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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I don't think anyone with a brain should / would think that the former owners of UB (russ hamilton, greg pierson, matloubi etc) are the current owners of the new UB+AP.

You remember the AP cheating scandal right, the T high call down, and the blatant cheating that went on at that site for a number of years - the issue isn't that the old UB now owns the new AP+UB, the issue is that the old AP, you know the ones that funded their entire operation on the premise that cheating their customers was a good way to generate revenue - these are the guys that now own the new UP+AP.

I think its convenient that you keep on stating that you don't think that the old UB owners are still involved or own AP+UB, but answer this if you would -

Do you think the Montana guys, the old original owners of AP - do you think they have any ownership or involvement in the new UB/AP company.

I have never heard you or anyone involved with the company state whether or not this was the case - and if this was the case would you still feel "duped"?
i have no doubt that some of the original owners are still around, bob. i believe that anyone who was involved or implicated in the cheating scandal at AP are not still. at least that's what my information and snooping around has turned up. as always, if anyone has any concrete information that proves they are there, i would def listen.
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Old 03-22-2011, 08:22 PM   #25
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Re: My Response to Blackmail Allegations + Assorted UB Comments

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Originally Posted by Gullanian View Post
Oh ok, well you were/are doing it, and as management could you please tell them to stop, especially if it's not your particular taste?

The posts were actually traced back to UB headquarters which is a hilarious exposure of UB's complete technological incompetency and general management incompetency. I don't really want to have anything to do with a site that employs such tactics that seek to further their reputation at the cost of 2+2's reputation. It's very frustrating.

I don't know why you had to qualify with "a lot of other sites do it", that really doesn't matter and looks like at attempt to dilute UB's responsibility in shilling when it's very unethical, and it also takes away any sincerity and legitimacy you have when you post on here afterwards.

We all like 2+2, so will you try and get them to stop it please?
i tell you what. i will def write an email to paul and let him know that i don't think this is the way to go if it is going on.
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