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Old 04-25-2020, 03:48 AM   #10801
RobertTressell
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Amazing thread, one of the craziest things I've ever seen in poker. Also shows how bad the poker content creators are at making clear concise videos/content, I've had to watch and read so much stuff to actually find the most suspicious incidents.

I don't think Joeey or anyone else really understands making content, a 15 minute video detailing this thing from start to finish and showing the 5 most controversial hands with a catchy title would rack up millions of views. Nobody is watching a 3+hour video, the shortest video I've found that's remotely useful is like 30 minutes and even that doesn't cover as much as it could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi Ray:

I don't agree. You bring in a top notch statistician who can talk about the possible fluctuations of the game and do a good job explaining why probability theory can be counter-intuitive and the jury will become so confused that I believe nothing would be awarded in a civil case. In fact, if the defense asked the proper questions (which is a big if), I think this would be a slam dunk for Postle.

Best wishes,
Mason
I think you're right, unfortunately without a smoking gun I don't see anyway a court case can win.

This is a really strange because it's the most blatant incident of cheating I've seen without ever actually proving it.
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Old 04-25-2020, 04:37 AM   #10802
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by RobertTressell View Post
I don't think Joeey or anyone else really understands making content, a 15 minute video detailing this thing from start to finish and showing the 5 most controversial hands with a catchy title would rack up millions of views.
So you do understand how to do this but just choose not to make a 15-minute video that would rack up millions of views?
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Old 04-25-2020, 06:50 AM   #10803
RobertTressell
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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So you do understand how to do this but just choose not to make a 15-minute video that would rack up millions of views?
I have no desire to make Youtube videos about poker. I'm not a content creator.

My point is that these videos are only reaching the poker community, and a small section of it at that. They're all fragmented over several videos some hours long, and none cover the full story. It's like coming into this thread half-way through, you have to already be following the story to understand them or go and read/watch other content to catch up.

A video would do really well and reach a wider audience if it followed the proven method of making concise videos that follow the story to date and are around the 10-15 minute mark. It could explain the card-room and stream, a small bit on the technology of RFID, Mikes backstory, the allegations and where they came from, a small analysis on mike looking at his phone & his body language (with comparison to before July 18th) and a few of the most suspect hands (sped up not shown in full). Doug Polk was the closest to making this but he was losing enthusiasm when this scandal broke.
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Old 04-25-2020, 07:03 AM   #10804
SimpleRick
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by RobertTressell View Post
I have no desire to make Youtube videos about poker. I'm not a content creator.

My point is that these videos are only reaching the poker community, and a small section of it at that. They're all fragmented over several videos some hours long, and none cover the full story. It's like coming into this thread half-way through, you have to already be following the story to understand them or go and read/watch other content to catch up.

A video would do really well and reach a wider audience if it followed the proven method of making concise videos that follow the story to date and are around the 10-15 minute mark. It could explain the card-room and stream, a small bit on the technology of RFID, Mikes backstory, the allegations and where they came from, a small analysis on mike looking at his phone & his body language (with comparison to before July 18th) and a few of the most suspect hands (sped up not shown in full). Doug Polk was the closest to making this but he was losing enthusiasm when this scandal broke.
Topical mainstream videos rack up millions of views. Any video about a months old poker scandal would struggle to rack up any views.
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Old 04-25-2020, 07:42 AM   #10805
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Ray Zee View Post
mason is probably right in the outcome of a civil case especially if they go after the big money casino that has the lawyer power. but anyway they would likely settle before going through all the mud. you never know what a civil jury will do and award.
however the participants that received the winnings will have the irs problems as there is proof of winnings that likely have not been declared for years.

It is pretty clear there was cheating involving a staff member, and Stones has close to admitted it by putting Justin on unpaid leave. Presumably the plaintiff will prepare a case with many witnesses, crotch staring footage, technical evidence, and poker and statistical expert witnesses.

Showing a large amount of damages may be a problem. There probably is a possibility the jury would find for the defendant, but also the possibility of a large award. As you say Stones doesn't want a trial and have all the publicity and revelations from this. I don't know how much this will be settled for, but it almost certainly will be settled like 95% of civil cases.

Most of the participants in this low stakes game were probably not professional players and could not be proven to be winning players. If they are professional, they probably file a return reporting some winnings and deductions.
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Old 04-25-2020, 09:37 AM   #10806
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by SimpleRick View Post
Topical mainstream videos rack up millions of views. Any video about a months old poker scandal would struggle to rack up any views.
also, for joey to do a 15 minute expose on the issue with highlights would takes tens of hours of work in just finding clips and editing together not to mention all the voiceover, graphics and post production

meanwhile those 3 hour long videos take exactly that long for him to do

i agree that the 15 minute style is preferable, but unaware of the economics of the situation and joey's personal time/budget to hire people it's pretty weird to try to tell someone else who's at the top of their game how easy their job would be if they just did it your way from your outsider perspective

i'm assuming joey runs most of his stuff at a loss with the occasional affiliate work - you can't tie in affiliate work with a scam, "hey pokerstars, let's tie in this video about how this guy scammed and cheated people in poker with your new deposit bonus offering?"

you may notice the few times joey dipped his toes into affiliate stuff it was highly relevant to the content, like interviewing the guy behind the training vids etc.

few companies would want to be associated with a cheating scandal - this stuff is either joey purely doing it out of passion or to build an audience

but by all means, make that simple 15 minute video and rack up the millions of views and start cashing those youtube royalty checks since it's so easy
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Old 04-25-2020, 09:48 AM   #10807
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by RobertTressell View Post
I have no desire to make Youtube videos about poker. I'm not a content creator.
I see. You're not a content creator, but you know how to create videos that rack up millions of views. And you know better than the most successful poker content creators without once having made a video.

What else have you never done that you know how to do better than the experts?
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Old 04-25-2020, 11:40 AM   #10808
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertTressell View Post

I don't think Joeey or anyone else really understands making content, a 15 minute video detailing this thing from start to finish and showing the 5 most controversial hands with a catchy title would rack up millions of views. Nobody is watching a 3+hour video, the shortest video I've found that's remotely useful is like 30 minutes and even that doesn't cover as much as it could.


It's obvious you have no idea how the history and the discovery process of this whole scandal went down. If you did, then you would understand why there were 3 hour plus videos. It's not like everything was known and someone was like lets make a 3 hour plus video of it. A lot of those videos are just copy's of live streams that were made as this scandal was going down.

I mean, it has been what? Almost a half a year now and you are making these idiotic comments? You are the worst type of Monday morning QB. What's next, you are going to criticize the 16 hour continues news coverage of 9/11 the day that it happened? It's just too long and not concise enough to watch? lol
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Old 04-25-2020, 12:13 PM   #10809
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mason Malmuth View Post
Hi pocket:

Except that it's not BS. The knowledgeable statistician wouldn't say anything that wasn't consistent with statistical theory. Again, read my Post #10781.

This is a little side story, but many years ago when I walked for Northrop, at a meeting, where I was the statistician meeting with a bunch of engineering managers, including our vice-president, he actually made me a $20 bet that what I was saying couldn't make any sense. From my perspective, it was easy money, and that's what I believe would happen here.

Best wishes,
Mason
Mason, those types of one-side arguments sound persuasive in a vacuum but they don't stand up to competent opposing counsel. The layman may not understand probability or statistics but it's a concept that lends itself to simple metaphors and that's what any competent attorney would use. In this case they would simply describe what the luckiest poker player who ever lived would look like, then describe how Postle's luck is several orders of magnitude above that. For example, they could describe what the luckiest McDonald's Monopoly game player would look like, then describe what the McDonald's Monopoly Cheater Jerome P. Jacobson looked like.
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Old 04-25-2020, 09:42 PM   #10810
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by PLIKITYPLAK View Post
What's next, you are going to criticize the 16 hour continues news coverage of 9/11 the day that it happened?l
You didn't.
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Old 04-26-2020, 04:00 AM   #10811
ejames209
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eponymous View Post
I see. You're not a content creator, but you know how to create videos that rack up millions of views. And you know better than the most successful poker content creators without once having made a video.

What else have you never done that you know how to do better than the experts?
I mean I've been a virology expert for the past 3 months so I can kinda see where he's coming from
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Old 04-26-2020, 04:04 AM   #10812
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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I mean I've been a virology expert for the past 3 months so I can kinda see where he's coming from
lol
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Old 04-26-2020, 05:48 AM   #10813
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Stones Casino: We will never financially recover from this.
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Old 04-26-2020, 10:49 AM   #10814
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Pls try to bluf View Post
Stones Casino: We will never financially recover from this.
lol, you win the internets for today.
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Old 04-27-2020, 02:00 AM   #10815
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by ejames209 View Post
I mean I've been a virology expert for the past 3 months so I can kinda see where he's coming from
I'm an epidemiologist and a virologist and I'm here to tell everyone, coronavirus is a hoax the government is perpetrating in order to replace the batteries on all the birds. Birds aren't real.
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Old 04-27-2020, 02:52 PM   #10816
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pls try to bluf View Post
Stones Casino: We will never financially recover from this.
Good.

When you have to file a defense that basically says you have no duty to the gamblers even though you are taking a rake, one of the alleged people works for the casino and the system used to cheat is fully owned by the casino....its a bit rich to cry about reputation.
They need to own it and settle.

https://www.cardplayer.com/poker-new...eating-lawsuit
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Old 04-27-2020, 04:02 PM   #10817
Jr0d
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

[QUOTE=RobertTressell;56047774]Amazing thread, one of the craziest things I've ever seen in poker. Also shows how bad the poker content creators are at making clear concise videos/content, I've had to watch and read so much stuff to actually find the most suspicious incidents.

I don't think Joeey or anyone else really understands making content, a 15 minute video detailing this thing from start to finish and showing the 5 most controversial hands with a catchy title would rack up millions of views. Nobody is watching a 3+hour video, the shortest video I've found that's remotely useful is like 30 minutes and even that doesn't cover as much as it could..../QUOTE]

Doug Polk has a couple of good ones that are less than 15 mins.

PHP Code:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yXZibOC0gmI 
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ScOZSiKQANc

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EUd8tlRVcFo

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=15NP-eNJvfI

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=e4EJ6otUu0Q


Since it will be a civil case, not criminal and a majority is needed to win instead of a unanimous decision, I think the odds are very good. The evidence is overwhelming to anyone with a basic grasp of statistics and probability.
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Old 04-27-2020, 04:23 PM   #10818
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Robert wants to have a 10-15 m video piece that looks like on tv.
Like a persuasive essay with a script.
That a jury members sees and within one minute says "yup!, you got it!" "That's a fraud!"
Being able to convince someone in 1 minute is pretty hard but possible.
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Old 04-27-2020, 10:43 PM   #10819
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

How come FatTrain isn't a defendant. That pinball collection must have some value.
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Old 04-28-2020, 02:38 AM   #10820
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertTressell View Post
Amazing thread, one of the craziest things I've ever seen in poker. Also shows how bad the poker content creators are at making clear concise videos/content, I've had to watch and read so much stuff to actually find the most suspicious incidents.

I don't think Joeey or anyone else really understands making content, a 15 minute video detailing this thing from start to finish and showing the 5 most controversial hands with a catchy title would rack up millions of views. Nobody is watching a 3+hour video, the shortest video I've found that's remotely useful is like 30 minutes and even that doesn't cover as much as it could.
I love it when people use hindsight to make themselves feel smarter.
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Old 04-28-2020, 02:42 AM   #10821
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by Dreamer View Post
Good.

When you have to file a defense that basically says you have no duty to the gamblers even though you are taking a rake, one of the alleged people works for the casino and the system used to cheat is fully owned by the casino....its a bit rich to cry about reputation.
They need to own it and settle.

https://www.cardplayer.com/poker-new...eating-lawsuit
My understanding it is standard practice to make these motions to dismiss even though they rarely work. I suppose those motions have to present it like the plaintiff has no case.

Seems like they have a lot nerve though claiming they don't have to provide fair games, when a staff member was using the video system they set up to help a player cheat. It wasn't like players were colluding or marking cards or something. The casino was effectively running a crooked game, even if higher management wasn't involved.
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Old 04-28-2020, 07:59 PM   #10822
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

Actually, these motions are rarely filed or successful because every fact alleged by the Plaintiffs in the complaint is considered true. Stones may get out of the litigation because there are no facts that show an employee was clearly involved in the cheating. At least Deuce has never told us what they are even though he has been asked numerous times. Unless the amended pleadings were horrible (I don’t recall the original being factual insufficient), Postle will never get out on his motion to dismiss.

As long as there is a legally cognizable claim and it is adequately pled, such motions are generally used to weed out the extraneous COAs by big firms flexing their muscles. Motions for summary judgment, filed after the completion of discovery, are the standard legal device used to get rid of cases that have no legal merit.
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:30 PM   #10823
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

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Originally Posted by jjjou812 View Post
Actually, these motions are rarely filed or successful because every fact alleged by the Plaintiffs in the complaint is considered true. Stones may get out of the litigation because there are no facts that show an employee was clearly involved in the cheating. At least Deuce has never told us what they are even though he has been asked numerous times. Unless the amended pleadings were horrible (I don’t recall the original being factual insufficient), Postle will never get out on his motion to dismiss.

As long as there is a legally cognizable claim and it is adequately pled, such motions are generally used to weed out the extraneous COAs by big firms flexing their muscles. Motions for summary judgment, filed after the completion of discovery, are the standard legal device used to get rid of cases that have no legal merit.
What's a COA? My understanding is that the motions were filed by Stones and Postle doesn't have an attorney.

Then why is Stones filing a ridiculous and provocative motion saying they don't have a responsibility to provide a fair game?
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:59 PM   #10824
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I have only read the articles, not the motions, but Stone’s seems to be arguing “no duty” to the facts alleged by Plaintiffs in their motion to dismiss. Basically, saying that even if Postle cheated, there was no duty on them to discover it or stop it and plaintiffs have no proof they (stones) participated in the cheating. COA is a cause of action. Usually you allege multiple, even contradictory COAs in a complaint such as claiming an act was negligent and intentional because if you can prove intentional conduct at trial you may receive punitive damages and attorney fees.

I did read part of the motion to dismiss filed by Postle linked somewhere in here. I presumed he just copied the Stones motion given the mistakes and the language of it.

Last edited by jjjou812; 04-28-2020 at 09:07 PM.
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Old 04-28-2020, 10:11 PM   #10825
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Re: Mike Postle cheating allegations (FAQ in first post)

I wonder why they would make such a weird argument. Have there ever been lawsuits against legal casinos or cardrooms over cheating in poker or fixed games? I read a discussion of lawsuits and prosecutions over cheating in poker and they all seemed to be in illegal or informal games, which were more common than legal games in the past.
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