Hey Vanessa, I agree with you 100% on both of these things:

1. There is definitely sexism in poker, and its a completely unfair situation for many female poker players.

2. By all accounts, Maria did nothing wrong here. I thought her post was very well stated.


However, I disagree that sexism has played a role in this situation, and I think that "crying sexism" when none exists can be a hindrance to the overall cause.


In the PokerNews interview Maria was asked about the strongest aspect of Melanie's poker game and she replied "her boobs" before talking about Melanie's personality. Next interview question was "whats the best hand she has played?", which was an opportunity for both of them to showcase their poker knowledge....Melanie gave a HH lacking a ton of details and Maria didn't talk about any specific hand. The interview concluded with them discussing their boobs some more.

I thought it was a great interview for entertainment value and for it's ability to attract people to poker. Both of them seem super comfortable in front of the camera, which is not easy to do. And I think it stems from the fact that they're legit laid-back and cool girls who would be fun to play poker with.

With that said, I think the image they choose to portray in these types of interviews has far more to do with the assumption that they get their money from sources other than poker than sexism does. I can't imagine what would happen if I were asked about a male poker pro's game and I instantly started talking about how large the bulge in his pants is and how its affecting play at the table.


I don't see how this has more to do with "being a woman" than it does with "being a well known poker player." Replace Maria and Melanie with Daniel Negreanu and Phil Hellmuth and nothing changes about OP's posts.




+1

Plus she was involved in the hand! When you're involved in the hand, you're focused on playing optimally......its incredibly silly to expect her to speak up immediately afterwards. Often times you're attempting to not show any emotion because you don't want to let your opponent see if you're happy or sad that he folded, or often times you're playing the hand back in your head to re-think your decisions.

Also, why are we completely dismissing the possibility that Maria was greatly annoyed by the guy humming the jeopardy theme song and calling clock? Maybe she felt as if this made her opponent more likely to take the action she didn't want, and she was super pissed off at him but kept it to herself.

Heh, UB and Lock Poker go hand in hand.

Singing Jeopardy while another player is contemplating a call seems like a violation of OPTAH to me. There's really no excuse for it. If a player think another player is taking to long, he is within his rights to call for a clock, but he should absolutely not be interfering with the play of the hand in any other way.

However, it is totally unreasonably for the OP to expect Maria Ho to say something to Maurice while this is going on. By saying anything in response to this, Maria might be telegraphing something about whether she wants a call or not. Really she is almost as much of a victim of this sort of behavior as the OP is.

Also, I had never heard of Maurice Hawkins before this year's Millionaire Maker tournament, and I have no idea why the OP would assume he is friends with Maria Ho or that they are part of the the same "clique".

1. It wasn't just "someone," it was 2 semi-notable pros. People tend to share stories of their interactions with semi-notable pros on 2+2...

2. 800 words is not a novel.

3. I'm sure the OP will have no problem moving on with his life. You seem butthurt over his supposed butthurt.

I play poker with the guy who stakes him or at least staked him for his score this summer, Maurice is a low limit circuit grinder guys, and recreational player in 5ks is gonna be 10x cooler than this guy ever u shouldn't let someone like this bother you....notice how lebron doesn't respond to idiot trolls on twitter because he's above that, same way OP is above Maurice imo

For the record, I have played with OP before, and he is very polite, doesn't easily get pissed off about silliness, and definitely likes to gamble in my limited experience with him. Obv the Jeopardy crap is BS and MH is a confirmed DB in numerous instances, and is bad for poker, as well as the, "You win, but you gotta show" trope that has sadly taken hold in some circles. But if we chase off all the casual gamblers, then Duck wins every tournament. Love the Duck, be we gotta spread it out a bit.

As far as sexism in poker, obv it exists, just like racism, weightism, etc etc. Get a bunch of egos together and the worst comes out in many instances. My big issue with a similar aspect of it tho is how many archetypal "pretty" girls get sponsored/media coverage, etc for little to no poker success while female players who don't fit that mold toil on relative obscurity like most other male players that may have have better results. For that reason, girls in the former group are from time to time be subjected to heightened scrutiny, fair or not. Not to mention the fact that a high % of all "tourney pros" are staked. Just like everything else in life though, as my favorite law of thermodynamics goes, "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction".

Disagree.

You shouldn't call the floor and have him penalized AND revenge clock call him. Pick one or the other.

He wasn't penalized. Only warned.

haha i would be sitting waiting to snap call the clock on him

Is Maurice Hawkins nickname mohawk and if not why not?
He could get the haircut as well.

I think comparisons like this are stifling the conversation a bit.
In my experience the poker culture does not really have much of a problem with weightism or racism (and even if it did it wouldn't make the sexism ones any less legitimate), but whether people realise it or not there absolutely is a HUGE problem with sexism. It's rare that more than a day goes by at the table where I don't see someone make a sexist remark, I can only imagine how it is if you are a female player who has to listen to it constantly.
Whether some people get more sponsorships than others or some laws about thermodynamics is really not proper justification for the comments that woman constantly have to put up with at the poker table.
Ask any woman who plays poker and they will tell you it's the kind of thing they have to put up with every day that they decide to play.
I really hope that everyone (myself included) will try harder to call out people on it in the future and explain to them why it's not okay. I think it's a big part of the reason that more women aren't playing and hindering the growth of the game and more importantly just a ****ty thing to do.

Maria did nothing wrong. It was clearly just a misunderstanding. Throwing your cards towards the dealer as she did is perfectly acceptable. OP obviously misinterpreted her demeanor etc. Time to move on.

Also sexism is so prevalent throughout poker. Can you imagine being a young woman and having to deal with these dirty degenerate low-life ****s on a daily basis?

expected a decent thread or something, op sounds like a drama queen loser.

Good job, OP. I wouldn't have done much differently.

And I don't think it's outrageous to hope that a pro would stand up for an unknown player being treated unfairly. It's definitely not Maria's or anyone else's responsibility, but having a douche like Maurice scare away unknown players is obviously -EV. It doesn't take a whole lot to stand up for someone in that spot. Plus it improves your image in the poker community.

Again, it's not someone's responsibility to do that, but why would you pass up that opportunity? In a better poker world, Maria would have waited until the hand was over, told Maurice to shape up, and apologized to OP if Maurice's actions influenced his decision. Word would spread of Maria's awesomeness and everyone would want to play with her. $$$$$. It's possible to be kind to someone and still be selfish at the same time. There would be a lot more recreational players at the tables if we just treated them a little better.

OP- you stated that Maria "set her cards down in front of her face down" and that is what led to the problem. Then Maria corrects you and says she actually tossed them in towards the dealer and they were not directly in front of her. Then you backtrack and say you had no problem with the way Maria mucked her hand.

Sounds like you exaggerated the facts to make Maria look bad, and then changed it when she called you out on it.

As to the second point about the Jeopardy thing, you chide her for not saying something? She was in the hand as well as you. Lot's of people don't talk during a hand for fear of giving off a tell. You apparently said nothing to the guy singing the song during the hand, but you really expected your opponent to? That's crazy. Even after the hand, did you tell the guy singing that it was inappropriate or were you waiting for Maria to do that?

At first I was on your side on this, but after reading Maria's version, it sounds like you were really weak for bringing her into this at all. Your basic premise seems to be that you didn't like what the dealer did IRT mucking her hand, and you didn't like the guy singing the Jeopardy song, but you call out Maria for not speaking out to fix those situations? That's weird, IMO.

This!

I played with Maurice a couple years ago. I would have forgotten him, but I no doubt remember him because of his absolute vulgar behavior and how he insulted and mistreated everyone at the table. It was so bad in fact, that the entire table hated him and we laughed and celebrated out loud when he donked out of the tournament. He played VERY LAG--raising and jamming with crap until he was snapped off with ace-rag.


Ya know how a table is full of fun and everyone was having a great time until that one a-hole ruins it and then the table becomes tense and dead quiet? Well, that was Maurice.

OP, if I ever play with him again, I'll insta-call clock at 120.1 seconds before he does it to me.

I think when his behavior gets douchey, he plays really bad. So, if anyone reads this and plays against him, verbally poke him with a stick and get him started. He'll donk off.

if 3 warning results in no penalty why didnt they just subtract points from w/e Harry Potter house Maurice is from (Slytherin obviously)?

She did set them down in front of her but was indicating mucking by her body language. I considered it a mucked hand but the cards were not anywhere near the muck and the dealer was making zero effort to retrieve them. I feel that she could have alleviated this particular incident by pushing the cards more forcefully toward the muck because she knew what my issue was but I don't fault her considerably for this. The dealer was the biggest problem here.

Especially since its now a business, only natural for this to happen. I mean, we are all humans are naturally we will always end up showing some kind of favoritism.

Next time, as a tip (granted the way you handled it was hilarious), if you have a real issue with someone being a dick.....take a few hands off and go to the floor on the side. Talk to them about the player in question, tell them you are uncomfortable, be calm with your concern. Don't make a big scene at the table....it just creates more problems and players NOT involved picking sides. After the TD does what he needs to do, then take a deep breath, put on the headphones, and ignore the madness.

Ironically, Joe Dumars used to do the same thing on those "Bad Boy" Detoit Piston teams. They would be complete dicks to the refs, then he would take the refs on the side during TV timeout and calmly explain his side and calm stuff down. It's the best way to handle this BS, IMO (altho you miss hands which sucks).

LOL at poker pros who act like this BTW. What a petty, childish lot of degenerates. Its just gambling, doods.

.

I've had this issue before and I protect my hand and tell the dealer that I called. If the still dealer doesn't understand, I'll call the clock. It sounds funny but it's a good way to remind people that there is an order of operations. If Maria has actually mucked then the action is on the dealer because it's time for the pot to be pushed...

My first thought when opening this thread is "Who the **** is Maurice Hawkins and why does he have his own NVG thread?"

It's OK OP. He's not as well known as he probably thinks he is.

I thought I'd miss the WSOP but then I read these threads and nah.

I've heard a lot of Maurice stories, seems like the guy probably thinks he's an end boss and not getting the respect he deserves. But you didn't make a really good case for anything other than the hopelessness for humanity in this thread.

he got a bunch of pokernews attention when he made that deep run