It's very clear that the OP wasn't being sexist. If it's not clear to you, it's just because you're not paying attention.

Maria was name-checked because she a) is a poker 'name', b) was talking to Maurice *while* he started humming the Jeopardy tune, and *kept* talking to him afterwards. Maria herself said this.

The sucky thing about all this is that Maria seems like a genuinely nice person. Reading between the lines of her interview, it's seems like OP was already on tilt by the time that hand went down.

It's a pity isn't it - OP seems nice, Maria seems nice - unfortunately they're were both caught up in Maurice's drama. From what others have written in this thread, drama just follows that guy around, Maurice is pissing off people wherever he goes.

OP even acknowledged that it was a dealer error not Maria's error by yelling at the dealer "MUCK HER HAND. WHY WON'T YOU MUCK HER HAND", whereas if Maria was still holding her cards he would presumably be saying "MUCK YOUR HAND" or "SHOW OR MUCK" or whatever.

I 100% disagree that it is an angleshoot to get called on the river and say "you win" and toss your hand forward. The WSOP has unique rules in that they require the caller to show in that situation. Most venues do not. The WSOP may want to revisit that rule and insist that all hands be tabled at every showdown, and that's fine, and then it is angleshooting to toss yours in.

I played in Vegas for 12 days recently and probably saw the above action play out over 200 times, and never saw anyone throw a hysterical fit about it. I did see a couple times where the bettor just said "you win" or "nice call" and not toss their cards in, the caller sat there, and then about half the time, the bettor tossed the cards in and about half the time, the bettor tabled, and then the caller showed. Usually, though, even if the bettor held the cards, the caller tabled upon hearing the verbal concession. I saw exactly 0 times where a bettor declaring "you win" or "good call" ended up tabling a winning hand.

+1 to microrollers post^^^^

OP got called a bitch at the table, and has subsequently been labeled sexist.

What a world.

I alway thought that Pro's should defend people when other pros get out of line. A lot of times when I've played at tables with players that were regulars and very good they would often defend someone if someone at table does something to hurt another player or make the table a less than fun experience.

MArio is a pro, sure she doesn't have to step up, but that is what I would expect from them.

it seems like a lot of these "live tourny pros" that travel around playing 300-1k buy in tournaments are big douchebags for the most part....they should realize playing a 560 at a local casino is the lowest form of poker available against the worst players around thus beating these games isn't something you should brag about....its fine being a bottom feeder but being a big ******* about it is really out of line

Her saying this is what makes this an issue IMO

Either table your cards or help the dealer out and toss your cards so dealer can easily muck them.

Not sure why players are even allowed to muck their cards if bet was called. If playing online the cards are tabled. Some might think it's not right to insist on seeing them but I will every time. Why not get as much info on them as they are getting on you in that hand.

Also, I don't think she did anything wrong by not saying anything to Maurice

this is why OP was correct to ask for the hand to be killed.
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/65...cumbag-815445/
She didn't do anything wrong, but she reinforced OP's idea of the "Pro Clique" when she chastised him for what she thought was bad behavior toward the dealer WHEN THE DEALER WAS OBVIOUSLY WRONG. Meanwhile she keeps her mouth shut when her pal is a complete jerk to someone who did nothing wrong. Principles, they are a thing.

I think she makes a good point about the dealer not being able to defend him/herself for fear of losing their job, or similar repercussions. So I don't think it's hypocritical to defend the dealer but not OP.

And now, more Maurice stories plz. He sounds like a contender for biggest toolbox ever (sorry, Doug Lee, you've had your time)

I'm with you on that

I can't believe this tool has his own thread and 21 pages of comments

Where are you reading this? It seems clear that the rule states the last aggressive player must table the hand first, and that said player would be in violation and subject to penalty if mucking instead of tabling the hand.

This is def not enforced. Also if a hand goes
To showdown and player A flips a winning hand he is entitled
To see the losing hand before it hits the muck per WSOP rule.
This is absurd to me and bad edequitte

Who the f is Maurice Hawkins

What did you say about him on Twitter?

The rule says:

"IF cards are not spontaneously tabled, the floor may have to enforce an order of show." 99.9% of the time, cards are spontaneously tabled when one player says "you win" and throws their cards in.

The part about the penalty/violation has generally been read as the person who is getting the pot, if THEY don't show, then violation/penalty. For example, Maria says "you win", tosses her cards, dealer mucks. Now OP MUST show to get the pot. If he then forcefully mucks into the muck pile, he may have committed a violation/penalty. The violation is tied to the WINNING hand being shown, not all hands. I would also imagine if the floor has to be called for a showdown standoff, and the bettor still refuses to show then they may receive a penalty. But the rule is not written and DEFINITELY not enforced to currently provide a penalty for conceding when your bluff is called.

"Her pal"... Amazing. They aren't friends at all. You are really grasping at straws here.

Id say most players at the WSOP or at least somewhere around 50% say you win and push there hand towards the muck when there bluff is called. I can only assume people who think Maria did something wrong aren't playing. B/c it's becoming standard. I often just say my hand when bluffing but at times just fire my hand into the muck. The rule is enforced in such a way that the bettor has no obligation to show while the winning hand always has to be shown. Be upset at the rule, not Maria. What Maria did is a complete non story.

If it's clear the betting action has completed, and you would like to scoop the pot, show your freakin' cards! Does it have to be complicated?

Tournament weenies...

That is a bizarre reading of the rule (yours or otherwise) as it is written. Yes, it states the winning hand must be tabled. Then it says a participant is in violation of Rule 71 if (s)he intentionally mucks the hand. It does not state that participant necessarily refers to the player with the winning hand, and I think this point is strengthened by the language "the last aggressive player on the final betting round (final street) must [emphasis mine] table first." The rule may be enforced in the way you are saying, but it doesn't read that way at all.

wow this thread is blowing up. honestly i think this is one of those "even bad press is good press" scenarios. i mean i had never heard about this guy, hes not well known. maybe he will become the next doug lee?

doug lee definitely approves of this thread

The interaction between Maurice and Maria throughout the time she was present at the table was one of joy and mirth. It wasn't seemingly being pleasant. It was happy conversations and smiles and laughs. Since Maurice's Jeopardy music and clock-calling were when I was contemplating my actions to Maria's river bet and then they joy and mirth continued past the incident, I was left to assume they were pals and I wasn't part of whatever their group is.

Now she says they aren't pals which I believe. That's fine. But honestly, I did not know either of them and all I knew was one broke the rules on me in a hand that could have assisted her, and then henceforth they were quite chummy-looking from where I was sitting.

No I was not expecting Maria to be my White knight here but from everything I could see they were buddies and I didn't feel I was getting a fair shake.

Also, my main issue with the muck hand thing was that when the floor came over, I felt that the floor looked at Maria and then at me, and so predetermined how he was going to handle this one. Given the two people, Maria and me, she's part of the in-crowd and I am not. Clearly what was supposed to happen was her cards were to go to the muck.

The floor, not wanting to take sides against Maria, looked at me and was insistent I needed to show. He then made excuses for why the cards weren't in the muck. He said "If she verbalized fold and you didn't hear it, it's still a fold." Which then makes the onus of the whole situation on me because it's probably my fault for not hearing what she said.

Going back to Jeopardy hand...

When the floor came up for the Maurice hand, Maurice game him a big smile and wink and the floor gave him an equally reciprocal laugh and smile. I then said to the floor person "Oh you two are buddies I see? You and him are friends?" Then the floor straightened his countenance and said "No. How may I help you?"

So part of the frustration for me in all this too is that yes I think the clique applies past the table to the floor people and if you're a regular, you're going to get the benefit of the doubt versus a newbie/unknown.

Also would like to say that I agree about being nice to dealers for the most part. They get a lot of insults and bad actions from players and I try to be nice to them. I did not start out yelling MUCK HER HAND! I started out with a gentle "Please muck her hand and I'll show."

The cards sat there...

"Muck her hand and I'll show my cards."

The cards sat there...

obviously this went on long enough that now a floor person has to be called over.

The floor then tells me I probably didn't hear her say "Fold" which is binding (although there's a zero % chance she said "fold" because she bet and I called... and who in the world says "I muck?")

So I'm sitting there... cards are still not swept in but sitting over a foot away from the muck. Entire table is staring at me. Floor is telling me to expose and I probably didn't hear her.

Maria then goes to defend the dealer when I said "She's refusing to muck the cards" and of course that added more complexity to this because the issue was finally over but Maria's comments prolonged it unnecessarily.

I probably yelled, "MUCK HER CARDS" but it was probably at least the 8th time I said it before I did.

You nailed the issue on the head with the bold part. This is becoming standard, but it's due to the rule not being enforced properly. It's a bad rule first and foremost, but as written, the bluffer should be forced to show his/her hand. If he launches the hand deep into the muck, then he should be penalized. And if he verbally folds or pushes the cards forward, then the caller should request to see the hand, especially before showing his own. The bluffer should never get free information in this situation... but as it tends to play out, they usually do.

Pros know the rule well and constantly exploit it. Amateurs generally have no clue about this rule and it usually ends up being explained to someone at my table in most of the $1K or $1.5K events I play. The rule is what it is and can't be changed until next year, so I'd recommend asking to see the bluffer's hand whenever this is done to you. And if they fire it into the muck, call the floor.

Also, the WSOP should have a clear rule about when a hand is dead. The common understanding, as discussed in the thread, is that the hand has to touch the muck for it to be dead. Hopefully most people know this, but it would be best to have this explicitly spelled out in the rules.

I expect a similar experience if I see him again and I had thought the same thing. I would say "Please tell me what I wrote about you that wasn't true?" so yes... and is there a way to link to view those Twitter posts? I'd be interested to see them.