You miss the point, I didn't even comment on the OP wether it's right or wrong, just saying you can't compare what the coach did vs what UB did to it's players. Or as you would say, comparing the two is really LOL

Buying hands is pretty much standard for regs, superusing your players isn't really that common for poker sites. But who am I to judge.

That's the problem. All the idiots itt discarding this issue as if it were of no importance or consequence whatsoever are clearly not poker players.

No one's ever going to cheat them out of play money, so they just don't feel concerned at all.

Better ask them how they'd feel if someone stole some of their magic gold at WOW or whatever the **** this game is all about...

The point is, you make it sound like its totally fine.

I think its more likely these people buy HHs as well.

Datamining hands is the same as using PTR premium or even PTR'ing people really. Yeah sure I don't think it's great that this is available, but basically anyone can do it and will not get **** for it so I don't think it's that much of an issue.

Yes datamining helps but I don't think it gives any kind of significant edge over someone, if player X is better than player Y, I doubt player Y suddenly has an edge on player X because he datamined hands. + people change their play often and against different people.

But that a leggo coach datamined some hands, really, are we out of news ? What does it matter if it's a leggo coach or some NL10 grinder, it's not allowed but so many people do it. The problem is not that player X datamines, it's that it's possible in general.

Where do you draw the line on "datamining"? Does it include sending a HH to a friend to ask for his opinion? Posting/reading hand analysis threads on 2p2? Watching a video of someone playing on a training site?

The above examples I would argue are generally more significant abuses of the strict Terms and Conditions, yet they seem to be accepted in our community. In those situations, you often have very specific reads being included in the analysis, screenames listed, and access to mucked hole cards (which afaik are not available in datamined hands).

I am not condoning datamining but would like to point out what I would consider a lot of hypocrisy in this thread.

at the end of the day

LOGIC

and

PERSONAL OPINION, BASED ON ANYTHING WHATSOEVER

is COMPLETELY irrelevant..

it's in the TOS, end of story.

lol, definitely not

Wait, say what??????????????

If your response is something wrt nittery about the exact language of the T&C, consider that
- FTP knows training sites, 2+2, discussing hands with friends, etc. exist and allow them
- FTP expressly does not allow datamining and actively interferes in PTR/users' ability to do so

When i opened this thread I didn't even care who or what "Leggo" was unlesss I was getting a ****** eggo...now I tune in just to see how long it will take this lil btch to come up with a PR response-which will be filled with everything except why he lurked so long without answering, why Leggo deleted the og posts, etc...

Please don't interpret my post to be pro-datamining, I think it's a bad thing.

I'm not an expert on the T+C, but I'm under the impression that the other things I listed violate it to some degree, and the resulting edges from those violations can be more significant. These violations are near-impossible to enforce for FTP (where datamining is more combatable) but they are violations nonetheless so FTP acknowledging their existence is irrelevant. It's not like they are "allowing" me to send a HH to my friend.

Dear Full Tilt and Pokerstars,

FYI, cheating is 'standard' on your site.

Will you let us change our screen names now?

Remember, the cheating regs are stealing money from you too, cause you won't rake anything that is withdrawn...

obviously its hard to draw the line but i think its clear that buying millions of HHs is on the wrong side of the line. fwiw, i even phrased an earlier post with "large scale hh sharing" to make a distinction between posting a hand on 2p2 because i knew someone would bring this up.

but now i will delve into the FTP terms of service to show why those things are acceptable and what greg did is not.

direct quote from FTP TOS under the heading "Not permitted in any circumstances"

"The use of shared hand histories provides detailed information on opponents a player has little or no personal experience playing against, and is deemed to be an unfair advantage. Violating this policy is subject to the maximum penalties for prohibited software use."

Under the heading "Not allowed during play" FTP mentions that use of PTR and sharkscope is only disallowed during play.

"Certain programs, websites, and subscription services provide extra information on opponents which may not be used during play. For example, the use of shared databases of tournament histories, results, and statistics are not permitted. Specific examples include:

SharkScope
Top Shark
Smart Buddy
Poker Table Ratings"

So, I think they are making a distinction between knowing some limited amount of information about someone without having played with them and having a 30k hand sample on someone without playing with that individual. I would say that since they say that looking at PTR when you are not playing is allowed (but not buying their HHs) I would say that by extension those scenarios you posted are allowed as well. Also, your last example as a violation is absolutely ridiculous considering the connection between Cardrunners and FTP.

I think a good rule of thumb with whats OK seems to be that if its something someone could communicate to you through the phone then its probably OK.
Posting a hand on 2p2 has the same effect as someone saying "man, I can't believe this reg keeps doing xxx when I xxx" or watching a video equivalent could be "wow this one guy 3bet me like 10 times in an hour and folded to all of my 4bets." It's very hard to convey all of the information in this picture


over the phone about one player, let alone about thousands of players and besides its not like you'd remember any of it unless you loaded it all into your hud and had it accessible while playing

edit:goddamn goofy keeps beating me to points

You must suck at poker then, cause if i sit down at a table with 5 players I have a good read on I have a much better expectation than if I sit down at a table with 5 unknowns who have good reads on me.

It seems like significant is being used instead of common and those words aren't the same here.

buying thousands of hands you didn't play to get reads (there's no other reason) is far more egregious.

Good post mdm13 and I agree with your interpretation of the T+C. I obviously am not as intelligent as Longee and goofy who think that the T+C is crystal clear on all mentioned issues.

holy can't believe all the micro ******s in here.

he deserves a month ban

FTP won't do anything.

I sent them concrete proof of someone using his friend's account fulltime(a friend who doesnt play poker) because his own account was banned.

He's still bumhunting the lobby 6months later.

Good question, what about PartyPoker? Afaik datamining hands yourself is allowed (fpgh) but buying hands isn't.

Reading this from you makes me sad.

hey guys, sorry so long for the response-- we've seen a lot of sites make the mistake of posting too soon and posting things they regret. i knew about the thread not too long after it got started, but truthfully would not have had anything worthy to add to the discussion, since i was not up to date on the rules of buying hhs like this.

i do have a question: doesn't ftp allow ptr to datamine on their site? i was under the impression that after some update a while ago they allowed ptr to get hands, but random users can no longer get hhs (whch is why posting high stakes hands is so hard now if you weren't at the table). however, ptr is allowed to sell hands to people? what are the people supposed to do with the hands? im still trying to figure out what this all means logistically.

as the owner of a training site, i absolutely should know what the rules are-- in this instance i feel like perhaps the rules have changed since the advent of ptr. i don't have to deal with it nearly as much in the games i play because at higher stakes nl having a large sample on someone isn't that important because of how much people are adjusting their games to their opponents (specifically in hu).

anyways, dan was dealing with ftp i believe first. he sees the thread, he'll be here to respond.

So for all of those ok with this, would you say the TOC is kind of like speeding? Sure its technically against the law, but everyone does it.

Same idea, or not quite?

Im not looking to change anyones mind here (I see that as impossible). Just trying to get a handle on things.

Its the same as searching someone on PTR while your playing. And I'm sure everyone who knows about PTR has done it at least once just out of curiosity about a player. I know fish that look people up on PTR just for lolz while playing. If FTP do anything more than ban him for a month or w/e then I think its incredibly harsh. If they do anything at all its harsh really.

I feel sorry for grog

just because it's hard to get caught and some don't doesn't make this comparison correct. skier is right. the punishment should seem harsh (certainly compared to nothing at all).

if they don't punish somehow in slam dunk situations they become a joke.

I'll give a serious answer then.

The problem is not that an instructor who is supposed to be a role model is doing this. The problem is that everyone does this, and the sites do nothing to stop it. Trying to skewer this guy is like the music companies trying to sue an individual person who pirated an mp3.

I am all for stopping datamining. But making an example out of one high profile is not the way to do it. Tables shouldn't be observable. It's a throwback from the early days of online poker, when everyone was suspicious of the sites' legitimacy. There is absolutely no reason people should be able to observe any tables other than nosebleeds.