Per previous post, page #5...

Gotta agree with Dusty there, seeing a bunch of quiet guys with hoodies, sunglasses and ipods on TV ain't the best thing for ratings.

ive heard of people losing their job, but not loosing their job. can you tell me if loose is a term on your HUD that i didnt understand while using it?

ehm... whats a HUD?
sounds like some sort of magic, some people are veeery scared by 'em, is it Voodoo?
like Phil Ivey wouldnt have a chance against me if i used one and he did not?

No really, i thought it was a program that tracks and records stuff i could (COULD) see and record myself too.

Now PTR on the other hand provides info about hands i didnt see... but is it cheating if i ask my friends to share info about players at my table of which i know my buddies played against?


My opinion?
ALL hand histories availlable for free at an "online poker regulation organisation" site

thats the problem..you dont understaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand

fyp

Because someone has to deposit money.

Like, duh.

no, i don't think you understand. you cant read.

Employee of HEM ITT

no i don't, since the only recourse is to ban players who have a way to circumvent their rules, and will not play if they think they are at a technical disadvantage.
question in my post. who is hurt except players using hud? it seems most deny any advantage, so why object if people circumvent it?

most of us who come from a business background will look at " rules ", to be guide lines, the cost of violating it must outweigh the benefit of obeying it.

Jonathanm,

Your reply was non-sequitur.

You made a post asking if it was good for the game if someone can do a little research on players in the WSOP (via PTR), and I returned and asked if it's good for any of these sports that they can HIRE someone ELSE to go video tape and compile scouting reports for the teams.

You then reply that it's not good to have a computer program do the research for you, but you failed to answer the question. Thanks.

Do you see how account sharing hurts all opponents, regardless of whether they use a HUD?

So most poker players who come from a business background consider cheating to be okay if they can get away with it?

So your point is that fish will come and play you without HUDs knowing that you are fully armed to the teeth with their stats? They won't mind right? So why not let all the fish know about HUDs before playing them?

To the average joe, the thousands of dollars needed to buy a proper computer, have multiple large screens and purchasing HEM and Tableninja is prohibitively expensive. You are acting like these guys will happily purchase such stuff just to play you on a level field.

to answer your question. yes.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/25/bu...me&ref=general

why do u consider it cheating?
who is hurt?
its just a rule,with inconsequential punishment.
like a parking ticket, just pay the fine and forget it.

u haven't really answered any questions.

youre going on and on about how we want people to get 'suckered' into playing poker... and that we are reliant on a person having no hud in order to play profitably.... and its just soooo far from the truth its redic.. there are toooooons of players that use huds.... and i doubt even half of them are winners... everyone cant be a winner.. nobodys getting suckered dude.. the fish have just as much right as anyone else to study and try to excel at this game.. and lol that they are just dollar signs walkin in the door when they sign up.... like its 100% the pro with a hud is going to win against them... its total ****ing bs... the fish already have enough going for them in this game.. there is ALOT of luck involved.. alls it takes is a few hands of run good or run bad on either side of the table.

Do fish even know what a stat is?

I love my HUD, but I'd give it up for the integrity of the game and a fresh supply of fish. Good article by Leatherass, we really do need to start thinking about how to make online poker more palatable to the broader community.

100% agree that we need to tailor to the fish, but this means giving them what's important to THEM and not what we think is important to them. I'd say the biggest issues are: getting your money on/off sites, having assurances that the games aren't "rigged" and that there are mechanisms in place to stop collusion/other forms of cheating. Most fish don't even know what PTR is, so how can they even worry about warez or datamining?

I thought I answered your questions and expressed in earlier posts why account sharing is cheating. Poker is an opponent-specific game; decisions are made based on specific opponent tendencies and histories. Given the exact same circumstances (your hole cards, position, board texture, etc.), you make different decisions for different opponents. When you share accounts online, you're misrepresenting to your opponents who they are playing. Their notes, impressions, and histories are therefore invalidated. I believe that this is a fundamental aspect of the game. Please let me know if you disagree with this and why.

Note that this has nothing to do with HUDs. At the nosebleeds, where HUDs don't play as big a role as they do at smaller stakes, account sharing is still considered cheating. See isildur1's epic downswing.

The live poker equivalent I gave would be if you have technology (camera, earpiece) that allowed someone else to make your decisions for you at the table. I believe pretty much all poker players would consider that cheating.

I don't think the punishment for account sharing is inconsequential and a meaningless rule. Players can lose their accounts. I believe in several instances, pro players lost their sponsorships when they shared accounts.

If you don't consider account-sharing to be cheating, why do you consider HUDs to be cheating? Maybe I've misinterpreted your posts, and you don't consider HUDs to be cheating. If that's the case, why are you and your business friends not interested in investing in HUDs as a tool to help increase your poker profits? Why would you rather risk losing your accounting doing something the poker community considers unethical rather than use a tool that many players consider a fair way to obtain an edge?

Is there any way to poll the broader community to find out what they think about the game? A lot of this conversation about what fish think about HUDs has been speculation.

I wonder how a live recreational poker player would rank the following fears about online poker:

Online poker is seen as an illegal activity
Difficulties depositing/withdrawing funds
Collusion
Bots
Online sites are rigged
HUDs

Anything that tells you how to play or gives you advice is CHEATING in a mental game like poker. Can you imagine if I were playing chess for money and had some computer or grand master sweating me? At that point you're not really playing me, you're playing someone else.

Now if I knew ahead of time or even if I just had some prog that tracked his opening sequences and stuff like that, it's a lot less like cheating. The mere fact that poker is being played on a computer means it can never be like live poker where you're left with only your memory and direct observation

I think your point is valid, that the broader community is probably more worried about their money getting lost or the system being rigged. Those issues can be solved legislatively, with laws that provide good regulation.

I think Leatherass makes a good point though that we, as players, need to start thinking about how we portray the game as well. Right now its all about marketing, as we need to basically "sell" that poker is an upfront, honest, and legitimate game of skill. While eliminating HUDs won't provide a huge influx of fish, it will slow the trickle of fish that quit every day because they feel like they are outmatched (technologically, if not intellectually). Its a step in the right direction, and I applaud that Leatherass is talking about what WE can do to improve the situation of poker.

+1

Guys, don't get too riled up or feel you need to respond to JONATHANM. From his previous posts I'm not even sure he plays online poker for real money.

He doesn't represent even a recreational player.

If you are banning huds you should ban note taking in the poker software. There is no difference between them. If person wanted to they could take every one of those notes themselves. If you are playing live and play live often are you going to sit on the left of a known fish or an unknown table? Some people play poker for fun others as a means of making money. The catch with online poker is that you are walking into a poker room with 100,000 people and need to choose some of 24,000 tables to sit at. HUDs are an invaluable tool IMO and my HUD has helped me analyze my play and play at a higher level by finding my own flaws more so than it has helped me be a better player.

I like the idea early itt of changing rakeback policies so that a person can't make a decent hourly rate 20 tabling break even poker. You can't do that in a live poker room. Limiting the number of tables that people can play is -EV for the poker site and a lot of players but may even the playing field a bit. With that and rakeback changes like in a real card room the best players would make the most money over time.

I think it is funny that a self proclaimed bum hunter hates information tracking software. I haven't seen his videos, how does he find his fish? Maybe it should be like a real B&M casino, you have to walk around and find the player yourself.