I think people would feel a lot better about if this happens, but it hasn't!
Since it hasn't, life at UB should not go on, but it does!

That is what's wrong.

I wonder if UB is interviewing the people involved, (the unreleased names)???

I do not think so. I believe it was said that UB or The KGC has no authority to do so.

Still awaiting to see what Legal Authorities (likely none) are getting involved.

Ultimate Bet could make all of us happy if they would simply hire an independent and reputable accounting firm to conduct a thorough forensic investigation of all of UB's data and records, but that's not going to happen.

Look, folks, it's all well and good to talk about what UB should do, but I hope by now most of us understand the reason UB has failed to do the things it should do is that it wasn't a rouge insider who was cheating, it was the site itself. Let me repeat that:

IT WAS THE SITE THAT WAS CHEATING!!!

And because it was the site itself that was cheating (and not just Russ Hamilton) there is no way in Hell they are ever going to do the things that should be done to properly investigate this scandal because if they did the things that should be done it would reveal that it was the site itself that was cheating. GET IT?

From day one all UB has done is cover-up. It's true that in many cases the cover-up has been so laughably incompetent that you find yourself wondering how they ever managed to pull off the cheating in the first place, but I'm afraid all this proves is just how vulnerable on-line poker is to cheating. Even idiots can do it. Let's remember this was a group of cheats who even though they were making millions of dollars, hands over fist, let the whole thing be blown by a coked-up half-wit who a more competent collection of thieves would never have allowed within a million miles of their scam (the AP cheating scandal that started the ball rolling on UB's cheating). These aren't rocket scientists, but with on-line poker they don't have to be.

If there was the slightest truth to the "Russ Hamilton did it" story, UB would have long ago simply hired a truly independent and reputable outside forensic accounting firm to conduct a thorough investigation of all of UB's data and records. That investigation would have long ago been completed and the results as to who was cheating and who was cheated would have been made available to the appropriate people and the cheaters would have been turned over to the appropriate authorities for prosecution. But none of that has happened and none of that is EVER going to happen because, as I said above, it would only prove it was the site itself that was cheating.

Joe Sebok and Barry Greenstein know all this and the fact that Sebok has now joined UB tells us all just how corrupt even supposedly respected names in poker can actually be. Poker wasn't originally nicknamed "the cheating game" for nothing. It's a great game, but it's a game that also attracts two-bit hustlers and thieves like flies to a rotting corpse and the sooner the internet generation figures that out and starts treaing these people like the thieves they are the better off we will all be.

If Sebok wants to prove me wrong let's see UB hire a truly independent and reputable accounting firm to conduct a thorough forensic investigation of all UB's data and records and report back not just to UB but also to everyone they determine was cheated. Anything short of that is just more cover-up.

I'm not holding my breath.

+1

Exactly, Why can't they tell us which "Legal Authorities". What harm is there in letting everyone know, who are these authorities(if any) If it came out that a real credible agency was investigating this and then this agency said we can't release any specific info at this time because it might jeopardize the investigation, then we might believe them. If the authorities are the DOJ, Canadian Gov or some credible law enforcement agency fine, If it's a few Indian chiefs sitting in a teepee conducting the investigation then it wont be believable.

What horrible rationale. I can't even begin to understand the flawed logic.

Now first off this is not fact, just an opinion.

It seems clear that UB COULD release the names of the cheating accounts but has chosen not to. Their reasoning for not being able to appears to be just another phony excuse as there are obvious ways to name the account-holders without implying those people are guilty of cheating etc. So the question is WHY do they not want to release the names other than Russ Hamilton?

My first thought would be the disclosure of the NAMES on the list (or at least 1 name) would be SO damaging to the site that the site may go bankrupt as a result. If UB goes bankrupt, KGC loses boatloads of free money. My guess is there's at least 1 VERY significant name on that list and that this person was likely NOT a cheater, but friends with Russ and therefore his account was used in the cheating. Again, assume this 1 player's ACCOUNT is connected directly to the scandal but the player himself did NOT actually cheat. Yet their name on this list will instantly make everyone believe they were in on the cheating as no one at this point will believe "oh his account was used but he had nothing to do with it."

Let's just assume for a moment for sake of argument that this person's initials are PH. Lets assume PH was NOT actually cheating, may have truly known NOTHING about the scam but he is/was very close to Russ's group and his account was used to transfer cheating monies but without his knowledge.

IF that was the case, just releasing his name as being on the "list" would irrevocably harm his name/image/website etc. Perhaps the conversation with the KGC went something like this:
"Listen KGC, when Russ did the cheating, he had several accomplices and also used several additional accounts he had access to. Some of the latter accounts were used to transfer monies without the account holder's knowledge that these were 'cheating' funds.' One of those account-holders was none other than the LEAD SPOKESPERSON for the site, initials PH. If we out this person as being on the 'list', 2 things are going to happen:
1. Nobody will ever believe this person was NOT cheating no matter how many times we explain it (as no one believes ANYthing we even say anymore)
2. As a result of this person's name being disclosed, the UB site very well may take such a significant hit to its overall already-shoddy reputation that this site will go bankrupt and cease to exist.
So we need to find a way to resolve this issue publicly, withOUT naming names, OR UB will likely go out of business, due to a rumor that is not true (PH is a cheater when in fact he didnt cheat but his account was used) and YOU, the KGC as a result will no longer make a dime off this website."

IF true, the KGC would likely say "I see the problem now. Let's come up with a way/excuse to NOT name the other accounts on the list so we can continue to line our pockets with boatloads of money."

Of course the above is just a made-up scenario, but at this point, since an actual incident DID happen to PH when he was awarded a pot even though he had the losing hand, not a soul would believe he really wasnt IN on the cheating, even if his account was simply used in the cheating w/o his knowledge. See nobody with half a brain believes the KGC or UB anymore, no matter what they say. And the COO Leggett has no credibility either as when the PH ACTUAL incident occurred a few months ago, Leggett came out and stated it was an "isolated incident that had never occurred previously." Of course then a random guy posted proof that a similar "bug" occurred in a game he was playing on UB, that he reported it, and was refunded. Then Leggett came out and said "other than these TWO instances, it s never happened." And of course than ANOTHER guy came forward with proof he too had a bug occur where he was cheated out of a pot or something similar. As such, UB claiming ANYTHING AT ALL, good or bad, is simply NOT BELIEVABLE. Sure they could SAY PH wasnt involved to HIS knowledge, but who at this point would believe it, even if true?

So that COULD be a reason as to why the cover-ups began and never ended. On a side note, think about how a REPUTABLE business would react to a similar scandal. Take Tylenol in the 80's - they came out and took a full-page ad apologizing to consumers. Then look at UB's approach. All I can speak for is myself and if "I" was PH and everything that went down happened, the LAST thing I would do as LEAD SPOKESPERSON for the business is DEFEND the business. As a REPUTABLE person, every time someone brought the scandal up, I would instantly give them the most sincere look ever and say "You're absolutely right. I apologize profusely for what occurred and simply cant defend it. If I had any idea what was going on, I'd be the first to say something but its just truly embarrassing to me and my family and I cant disagree with you feeling how you do. All I can tell you is give me your contact info and Username and I'll do everything I can to get this straightened out for you." I would NEVER EVER have the balls to brush it aside and make truly ridonkulous entrances to WSOP events ignoring the obvious pink elephant in the room.

Of course PH doesn't ever say anything CLOSE to this. He and Annie give the run-around and defend the site. When he was awarded the pot even though he lost it, he didnt immediately freak out and say "what the hell is going on here?" No, he said "this stuff happens all the time."

And of course, now that PH and AD have done more spinning than a gym class, they need to hire someone fresh and new and actually reputable to take the "You're right, we handled this terribly" path. And who better than one, Mr. Joe Sebok?

Again, this is nothing more than an educated guess. Please do not spread the rumor that PH;s name appears on the list.

It's probably been discussed before but have any of the players that felt cheated, or have proved they have been cheated then refunded, actually decided to take legal action against UB?

I have little knowledge of how the legal system works, I don't even know what sort of legal action could be taken, if any, and I believe it would be bad for online pokers rep but I'm surprised in a day and age where people seem to sue each other for everything that no-one has taken this road with UB.

Why did you just jump back to the who cheated and what are you going to do them question? I just told you that that is needed so UB can return money to those that were cheated as they say they want to. I didn't say anything about going after the cheaters.

Did that register this time?

And it doesn't matter if they are regulated or not if UB wants to restore faith in their site as a safe place to play. If they don't, fine. Then they deserve all the bashing they're getting. If they somehow can run a successful site in the face of being branded a cheating site, that doesn't mean everyone should just shut up about it.

Cliffnotes of earlier overly lengthy post (cannot find Edit button):

Russ COULD have superused and won 100k, then turned around and paid PH money due for legitimate work (i.e. promotional appearance fees etc) 5 minutes later and now PH's acct is technically linked to the scandal and may appear on the S/U list they dont want released. Russ would often pay PH via Xfers so its likely some of the $$ paid to Phil had unknowingly come from recent S/U sessions. Outing this acct would be devastating to biz REGARDLESS of whether PH was involved knowingly or not. Just a theory.

Iirc, UB Sponsored players were normally paid via Xfer from Russ for legit biz activities but likely with "bad" money. If the list ever comes out, I'd guess there will be a press release associated that explains how none of the UB Sponsored Pros on the list(assuming there are some on there) were involved whatsoever w/the cheating and that they were simply paid normally for legit biz activities via Xfers from Russ and that is the only reason their accts appear on the list.

PH's name is on the UB cheaters list

/close thread

Get your shirt and tie on my friend, you're off to court.

.

This was addressed by me in an earlier post. It is completely inaccurate.

MM

I seem to say this in every thread about this. Hellmuth and Duke have ownership stake in UB, they are not Employees.

the list is not a "cheater list" It's names of people that had some sort of dealings with the cheater screenames, or were cheaters themselves, the people don't all have the same level of involvement obviously, and many of them are only guilty of taking legitimate transfers from the cheater accounts.

Of course Hellmuth's name is on the list....do you really think Phil NEVER asked Russ to transfer him money? This is the main problem I see with releasing the names, a lot of less than intelligent people on here (I know, they are probably only one or two) will associate this with Phil is a cheater.

I couldn't care less about the 31 names being released unless their level of involvement is fairly obvious and made known.

Right, but if there are "others" who were directly involved in the cheating and they know who they are, why not releases those names.

this was not in broadcast. not there. not even close.

the way to say this is "you are mistaken," Barry is saying he thought something, not making an acusation.

PS (check out online poker at UB .com !)
(Gauss, involving myself in other peoples business since 1969)

I feel completely differently after listening to the pokercast. I am not going to play on Ultimate Bet any time soon myself, but I actually wish Joe every good thing after listening to him. I hope he didn't screw himself. I absolutely believe he was being genuine.

^^^^^^^^^ Joe is already earning his UB paycheck

I will call my Chinese lawyer So Sue Mee

No. The way to say it is exactly how I said it. My comments were not directed at Barry, they were placed here so that all the readers of this thread would not conclude that this company and website is run differently from the way we actually run it.

Mason

just a reminder that phil has told blatant lies in a public forum to defend UB (over the incorrectly shipped pot thing.). I always thought he got way too easy a ride for that - claiming that it was "part of online poker" and it had happened him "around a 100 times" online, when UB were saying this was the first and only incident (which was also a lie on their part iirc).