In a perfect world, a scandal like this would doom a company. Word would spread and players would scatter. Eventually the site would go out of business.

Other poker sites would see what happened and do everything in their power to insure nothing like this happened to them.

Ah, but it's not a perfect world.

Word did spread to some players, but not all. Some players scattered, never to return. Other players trickled back because they perceived soft fields. Others believe that the culprits were cut loose, restitution was made, and the "new" UB can be trusted.

As much as some of you hate it, and are unable to accept it, UB survived.

Because of short memories, newcomers to the game, and yes, celebrity endorsements, it's my guess they will continue to survive.

If this is so, if we must accept the fact that UB is here to stay, what are our options?

We can choose to never play there. We can choose to boycott and heap disrespect on anyone or any entity that associates with UB.

We can swear we will never again watch ESPN, visit PokerRoad, or attend the WSOP. We can boycott all companies that buy ad time on ESPN.

If Ford buys ads on Sportscenter they are supporting ESPN, who supports and promotes UB.

The fellow who works as a mechanic at your local Ford dealership is also guilty by association. If you see him at your local watering hole, punch him in the nose. After all, he sold his soul to work for $18.50 an hour for a dealer who gets his product from a corporation that supports a TV network that promotes and accepts money from a poker site that had a cheating scandal.

Or, you can join me in the real world.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzmjaBT6MXs

Shane,
I don't know if you remember me or not but at this point you probably don't care.

How is everything in my post incorrect? You may have a lot more respect here at 2+2 then i do, but in my world have a TON of respect and I think you know what my world is and because of that you do not value anything I say.

I am ok with that, however you truly cannot say there needs to be regulation, or rehabilatation. What if you went to jail for playing on line Poker while driving?

After serving your time you came back but were berated non stop for what you did and people all over were telling everyone to keep away from Shaniac.

Scott, just stop. imo.

hey Joe did you meet Scott Tom the AP exec in Costa Rica???? nice guy???
Scott Tom had another way of getting our very own 2+2 posters to stfu he had AP lawyers threaten him with legal action if he didn't stop poasting about Scott Tom you know the guy who's office IP address was traced as one of the superusers oooops i guess i should expect a lawyers letter in my mailbox I'm scurred
can you help Joe??? who will be next to be threatened with their first amendment rights???
Mason and David dont want to spend money for lawyers imo

This thread has gotten a little out of hand. I, for one, am eagerly awaiting the release of the hand histories to see whether folks like actiondan1 who claim they were cheated and not refunded can make a compelling case that the refunds were incomplete.

In a thread full of terrible analogies, you actually win the prize for worst analogy.

Noone has gone to jail or suffered any other consequence in the UB scandal! It's not a case of forgiving or forgetting someone who've paid the price for what they did.

And no, paying back (probably just part of) what you stole does not count as 'paying the price for what you did'.

The very existence of UB at the moment is nothing more than a monument that poker sites can do whatever they please to poker players and yet still keep their business.

LOL

This is so sweet.

Scott, all you ever do suck up to poker players you consider cool, or aspire to be like, and your posts end up equating to cyber-fellatio. Except, fellatio is never quite worthless, so my metaphor might be off. In short, you, erhm, suck.

And now, one of those players (yeah, I remember you phoning in and boring everybody to death during every ***** episode of BPS when Shaniac was co-hosting it) basically tells you how dumb everything you wrote is.

Cheerio.

All you guys are so Full of sheet..

I can guarantee 110% that if any website (poker site) offers you a multi million dollar deal to represent their websites you'll be wearing their underwear, so stop hating on Joe Sebok and close this thread

I don't remember you, and I don't know what "world" you are referring to. Remind me.

If you want to let UB off the hook and feel convinced that everyone has been paid back (almost definitely not true) and that it was one individual who did the cheating as opposed to a group of people high up in the organization who carried out the fraud (it was almost certainly the latter), that's fine. Most people who have been observing this thing unfold don't think those things are true. If Joe Sebok wants to endorse a site that willingly cheated its customers in the most blatant way, that's fine too. I don't even think Joe plays much online poker, and I definitely don't think he understands the magnitude of the scandal.

As I've said, the poker world has lost this battle, UB has won, and it looks like a site that blatantly abused and manipulated its customers will prosper for a long time to come. Not sure what more there is to say or what point you are trying to make or why I am even still in this thread. If you see me wearing a UB patch at any point in the future, it will be because I desperately need money (like "sucking dick under the boardwalk didn't work out" level of desperate.)

Of course I'd like a regulatory body for online poker, but it seems like a pipe dream.

I think you're missing the point that has been made several times in this thread.

I have a REAL job sir, I play poker for fun and never to try and ASPIRE to be anyone or be like anyone but the person my Mother and father wanted me too and I think I do that everyday on the Streets of LA.

Goodnight...

Hahahahaha!

Every post like a body blow.

if u support seebok then just say u support him...but why are you defending a company who has defrauded its players?

also, in what way has UB paid their debt to society? they have been non-transparent with their dealings and wants the community to take their word at face value even though they have been caught for cheating. imo, paying your debt in this case would be to open up and do every thing in your powers to prosecute the individuals who have sullied your name. making sure all the players have been payed back wouldnt hurt either...

you dont know wat you are talking from a very good source - "Joe didn't get much" (which i agree is relative) if the source wants to confirm here it's their option

I'm fairly sure you've lost you ability to reason, if you ever had one.

I think I'd feel more comfortable about this if Joe timeboxed his objectives.

So, say 'I'm signing with UB as I believe they will be transparent going forward, and I have made three stipulations, which I will work with them in order to achieve for the good of pokers ongoing reputation. I have been made assurances regarding their cooperation and my involvement with the organisation will cease after six months if the above issues are not resolved'

Six months should be more than enough time to at least demonstrate clear progress.

As it stands, it's an open-ended objective which I doubt will ever be fully realised, and as a result will do both his and PokerRoad's reputation no good whatsoever.

I would think a timeboxed short-term contract with an extension should they genuinely show signs of fixing things, would be far more palatable to many people

This analogy is like a new kind of stupid, are you all sure its not a level?

Shaniac understood what I was talking about , he can explain it to you all if he wants to, Im not.

Transcribed from "The Poker Beat" (FWIW, a Pokerroad show and yes, Scott Huff is a FRIEND of Joe's, but he did admit that this had a lot more to do with how big Sebok's ego is than how much he needs to money):

"...I know Joe better than you do. And I can promise you this had a lot less to do with him being naive and being a scumbag and just wanting to take the money, and more to do with he thinks he's gonna be the saviour of the poker community with the million Twitter followers, and he's finally gonna get to step out of that shadow that does not need to be mentioned - Joe Sebok-Greenstein."

He then goes on to say that he thinks Joe will eventually fail and may have to eat it.

To be fair, when I repeated myself I said it was less about money than ego. But in my opening remarks I first said what I believe to be true, and it stands. This has to do with money. It also has to do with ego. And there is also sincerity. As with any human decision, there are factors at play beyond what's at face value.

EDIT: there was some subtly I missed in Worm's post. I can't comment on whether Joe "needs" the money or not. We're friends, but his personal finances are none of my business. I was just commenting on the fact that he IS being paid by UB, and that it seems to me that would have to be the primary reason behind accepting a deal that carries with it so much stigma.

wow, really? someone like Scott Diamond comes on here and gives his views and because you people disagree you tell him he's an ass kiss and unable to reason? who the fak are you people talking to? this thread reminds me that two plus two is largely made up of tools. suk it.

Well maybe now I know the only thing that UB may actually have of value:
Joe's 1M Twitter followers

The intelligence of the UB spin dept is not to be underrated as these guys think like true brilliant crooks. If its true that Joe didnt get paid "millions" then their signing of him may be the single biggest heist they ever pulled off.

At this point in the cycle, they need to rebuild good word from the ground up and what better way than to use a viral marketing pro with a huge following and great reputation. He comes out looking the hero, even though he had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the eventual release of the HHs, and everyone says "Joe you're so great". Next thing you know 1M "followers", many/most of whom may not even know of the scandal by next year or two, have successfully viraly convinced a whole new generation that these are "good guys" at this UB site.

If their software is nothing special, their promotions and gtd tourney prizepools are not anything great, their spokesman of PH AD TM and somebody named "ruthless" (fitting name though I dont know this person whatsoever) are not overly reputable, then they truly have NOTHING. Now, they get a full re-birth courtesy of Joe, apparently by selling him on how he'll save the world and everyone will love him for his actions.

This following of 1M Twitter people MUST NOT be underrated/undervalued. These UB snakeoil salesmen are not stupid. My guess is Joe has some idea of what his value and following is in general, but NO idea what it is specifically to UB. To them he's f'in GOLD and I really don't think I'm exaggerating here. Think of his meeting going like this: As Joe is told by them he's going to be an important part of the company, the real owners are watching behind closed doors going "this schmuck's gonna save our whole company. And he'll do it for peanuts just to look like a hero for releasing something that was coming out anyway. Sign him and let the good times roll again."

Forgive me for being cynical but I live on the ground floor of reality and know the UB mentality. IMO this simply isnt a situation to forgive and forget like some on this site seem to think they deserve. I live in reality, not la la land.

You respond to the allegation that someone is unable to reason with arguments from authority and ad-hominems?

Clearly Scott Diamond isn't the only person here who is unable to reason.

My point is that all of the posters saying "WHY DIDN'T HE JUST SAY HE'S DOING IT FOR THE $$$?" should look at what someone who actually knows Joe (not just what they see or hear from him in the media) is saying before making a judgement.

I think you're point is well taken that it was a combination of many things (and obviously, money is one of them) that led him to his decision, and if you believe that he really thinks he can get this done, then I take your word for it. And as you pointed out, whether he actually gets it done or not is a whole other story.