Ok this deserves its own thread:

https://youtu.be/hnNmJ7lKCm0?t=149

Discuss

She’s right about pros and any form of reg but wrong about all the recs.

Part of Joan Rivers whole shtick was this type of persona.

She has made some memorable characterizations of people over the years. Yup, and there's been some highly offensive ones.

She's not too far off base here.

Decades ago, Mike Sexton tried to get poker players to dress up when they played. When he came up with tournament of champions and the world poker tour, he had this vision of poker being a formal and respectable affair. (Was Tony Dunst and his style was influenced by this line of thinking?)

Given the context, timing and Joan's life experiences, she's probably not wrong.

Poker does have a perception problem and I don't think it can be changed.

Even if you are a long term winning player, it's not uncommon for people to think you as a gambling addict... or "Trash" as Joan says.

People try to argue with me on this analysis.

There's nothing to argue. I can't change what people think. A portion of the population tends view anyone who regularly engages in a gambling activity with contempt.

That link (to the exact second) is already being discussed and is part of another thread:

https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/2...mment-1825387/

You can, but not with words and reason Instead, actions.

I'm personally not trying to change anyone's mind in regards to any form of gambling. Regardless of the amount of skill involved. It's always someone's individual choice based on their analysis of the event they wish to wager upon.

Regarding people who feel negatively about gambling.. when you bring up poker...

It doesn't even feel anecdotal at this point in my life.

The amount of people I've heard tell me that they have a Dad who blew the college fund, a grandmother who blew the retirement at the slots or even my ex girlfriend's dad who decided to "Go Pro" after a 6 figure win years ago. (That lasted 6 months).

The number of times I've heard this story from someone else, in response to me hearing someone spin poker as a positive expectation game, it's at the point to where I think many ordinary people associate gambling with the trauma and pain that they've had to endure watching a loved one battle the addiction.

It's a different perspective than I used to have, but I understand it when I started thinking about it differently.

Of course she's right and particularly right given the era her knowledge comes from.
The funniest part of Poker Boom 1.0 was watching SHIIIIIIITbags get sainted by a clueless public who had no idea what sort of people they were looking up to.

okay let's assume for the sake of argument all poker players are total scumbags. what happens next

Joan Rivers was cremated and her ashes are now in Wyoming.

100%

sometimes in poker, there are players that play

When Joan said that the players’ money has blood on it, it’s the blood of all the people who went broke and became homeless, committed suicide, went crazy, or lost their loved ones as a result of their addictions that pros took advantage of.

Poker - especially as you climb the stakes - is extraordinarily predatory. Players are called “sharks” and “fish” for a reason. The whole point is to leave your opponents with less money and to harm them financially and even emotionally (e.g., trash talk). Bluffs, a big part of the game, are debatably immoral since you are basically lying. Indeed, deception is a huge part of the game. Let’s not get started with angle-shooting and outright cheating, examples of which there are too many to count.

Some try to whitewash what’s going on by convincing themselves they’re giving the recs a fun experience, but in doing so they overlook the dark underbelly of the game, full of sorrow, misery, and pain. No one who has played long enough can deny that the game hurts everyone at some point in their lives, even the biggest winning pros. Imagine how much more suffering is inflicted on the losing players.

It’s just a game…until it isn’t fun anymore.

RIP Joan Rivers. You knew what you were talking about.

So why do you play?

Would someone be kind enough to summarize what is this show and what happened on there? Why was she trashing Annie Duke and poker players? I’m completely out of the loop

Pretty sure this is from The Celebrity Apprentice where C-list and D-list celebrities would compete to be named Donald Trump’s “apprentice.”

That’s not really relevant to the question the OP posed, but I’ll bite to provide some context.

As many here know by now, I started playing poker recreationally after I was hospitalized for severe mental illness and found free bar poker as a way to cope with debilitating depression in the aftermath of my mental breakdown. After some time, a friend told me to start playing at the casino (1/2 and 1/3) and I became good enough to win.

Eventually, I could no longer get the same enjoyment out of free poker and the financial opportunity cost was too great. At first I had little in terms of savings to my name and needed to fill the time with something productive while I figured out life and recovered. Poker filled that void and it just stuck with me like any habit does over time.

The game is so closely intertwined with my journey out of my mental illness that I fear ceasing that activity could have harmful effects. Routine is very important to keeping mental illness in check and I have been unable to find a substitute activity that keeps me occupied for as long as poker.

Poker has the added benefit of taking me out of my own head and allows me to tune out the negative voices that pop up from time to time. It requires focus and concentration but is not so taxing as to be exhausting or overly stressful. Because I consistently win, I derive a sense of satisfaction and self-esteem from the game as well. Poker strikes the right balance for me and my unique needs. And, at this point I feel like I have little choice but to keep playing. Once the game sucks you in it can be hard to get out. It’s not just an issue for losing players, it’s difficult for winners too.

As someone who recently “retired” from poker, I understand what you’re saying about being sucked in.

But you always have a choice and there’s plenty of alternatives out there if you actually truly want to quit. Maybe you don’t really want to at this time, and that’s fine, but don’t feel like you’re stuck and don’t have a choice.

Especially knowing how predatory and dangerous the game could be to both yourself and your opponents, I would recommend considering finding an alternative.

My trip to the WSOP this year was my last. I’m finding myself being pulled to help others to occupy my time rather than spending it studying, watching, and playing poker. I still engage on this site as I’ve been here for so long and like staying in touch with some of the members but my playing days are over.

Based on your thread, you play everyday and put in more volume than the average pro. You spend more time playing poker and make more money doing it than at your other “job”, no? Would you consider yourself a semi pro at least?

You agree with Joan Rivers that poker playas are trash. Do you feel that you are trash or are you somehow exempt based on your unique circumstances? This cognitive dissonance must not be healthy for the self esteem or mind. Take care of yourself, Dumbo.

The bolded made me forget about one of the most obvious dangers of the game and that is the risk of being killed, threatened, or robbed. I’m not saying poker players are the culprits but you never know how word gets out who the winners are and who has lots of cash on hand. In my local bigger plo game alone there have been two robberies in the past six months.

Isn't pretty much all capitalism as generally practiced predatory?

No.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind on the outside either, I'm not in the PR business. That perception problem, as you put it, is only a problem for the exact type of weaselly, hustling scumbag types that the gambling world typically attracts. It exists for a very good reason. Personally, I don't see that perception as a problem per se. It's a feature, not a bug, but it is something we all have to live with when we talk about playing poker or being poker players.

It's ironic and fitting that Annie Duke et al. did exactly as Joan would have predicted with the Full Tilt grift.

If everyone gambled responsibly, you would never hear those sad stories of ruin and suicide because they simply wouldn't happen. Therein lies the rub, as the saying goes. If everyone gambles responsibly, it wouldn't be a profitable venture that grew into an industry. Casinos wouldn't exist like they do and "poker player" wouldn't be a "profession" in society. Thus, you want gamblers to be irresponsible for you to make good money, and that's where gambling's reputation and perception is rightfully earned. It's intrinsically not a financially, socially, and psychologically healthy activity for the whole, regardless of whether or not any individual has a high aptitude for the game, and that's a shame because poker is a great game that's unfortunately associated with such seediness.

Out of curiosity, when you are consistently winning at poker and deriving a sense of satisfaction and self-esteem, who are the losing players that *you* are winning against? Is it a different player pool than the pros who consistently win money?

Google is your friend, you do not have to depend upon the kindness of strangers.

Well said, for the most part.

I think the benefit of getting "taken out of your head" is under-appreciated as a benefit of playing the game; the requirement of focus and concentration, in what is a limited context of the game. To be frank, the risk of playing poker pales compared to general real life consequences of many activities, as do the rewards of playing (at lower stakes at least..)

Playing poker can be a satisfying mental exercise and respite. The financial gain or risk at lower buy-ins are not really compelling, it's the playing experience (and mental douche effect that may attract/benefit rec players. )