My book is coming tomorrow and I’m excited to get it. I really don’t enjoy no limit hold em that much but it is the most widely available game so I play it more than I’d prefer and have done ok (basically play it when decent limit games are not available or I don’t feel like traveling to play them). That said I have plenty of room to improve and given my history of reading 2p2 books I am fairly certain it will be worth far more than 22 bucks for me (and basically anyone that ever plays 1-3 or 2-5 and wants to do better). Look forward to giving my thoughts after I get a chance to read it.

I agree live fish will play worse (preflop) than internet fish but that means more reverse implied odds not less for 76s.

I'm thinking of all the scenario's where 76s get's stacked. Surely a fish will not fold any QJ offsuit or suited correct? So any T98 board we are probably going to get stacked.

Any board where we flop/turn/river a lower flush we probably get stacked. And there are very few boards where we will cooler our opponent. We will need to be very disciplined in folding flushes versus river aggression if we raise 76s preflop.

But I don't think you can have a strong opinion either way unless you prove it with data.

I'm still looking forward to the book but I'm just relaying my concerns with raising a weak hand like 76s preflop vs a bunch of limpers.

The cost of raising preflop with 76s otb makes it a worse play than limping. It is not more +EV to raise it.

Yeah, the current theory, which can't be based on GTO, but maybe partly on simulations and data, is that pps and Axs are strong in these loose games because they can make the nuts or close. Low suited connectors and gappers are weaker like 5-way than HU, because you make worse flushes, worse straights, worse trips, and worse 2-pairs. It is similar to why 8765 is not a very good PLO hand.

Yes this.

So to break it down to the authors of the book

A hand has three options

Raise
Call
Folding is neutral or zero EV

We are saying that the EV of limping 76s otb and keeping pot small and ranges wide is higher than raising and playing a hand versus the Remaining callers if any. The reason this is , is that low stakes live cash players overvalue large suited hands pre, like Q3s, and will correctly have pot odds to continue versus us after they limp

Two authors think it is a good play, so it can't be that bad. Raising reasonably large with 76s on the button has value even if it might be slightly ev- on the hand. It makes you harder to read, and may give you action etc. You can have low cards after raising. It plays pretty well against 2 high card hands with deception, position, and initiative. Maybe better than against 5 mostly marginal hands, where you are more likely to make dominated good hands. The ev of limping the button with it is positive, but slight. If you are making pot builder raises, I would save them for hands with more ev.

If the whole idea is that we're playing against a bunch of fish, then trying to be harder to read or having board coverage are two things that really don't matter.

Yeah, but 1/3 players who are paying attention may put the preflop raiser on a narrow range, and you will rarely get 3-bet, so it doesn't cost you that much to mix it up a little.

I disagree with this simply because reads matter a lot in these games. A lot. There are hands where I am sticking it in with thr bottom part of the straight and ones where I am folding instantly without much thought.

These games are populated with players who will often play with their hands face up. Why pass up opportunities against them with hands that would be suboptimal against better players?

I think this analysis overlooks the fact that fish will often pay off weak flushes with two pair or even weaker hands.

Fish find it really hard to fold.

Especially in games where an EP raise is going to be called in 3 or 4 (or 5 or 6) spots.

At these levels your bet sizes should have absolutely nothing to do with disguising your hand and everything to do with the strength of your hand.

At these levels I am not trying to hide the strength of my hand so much as make it so opponents will find it that they cannot fold post-flop if they hit a mediocre hand.

You are still missing the point.

Some people don't play higher than $1/$3 because of skill. It is because they don't want to.

They aren't wondering if they could have made it. They simply do not care. They play because they find it fun and a distraction from "life". Literally no desire to challenge themselves at higher levels.

Of course. No argument.

There are also many tables where only 1 or 2 obvious players play well enough to recognize you limped with KK and they might not even be skilled enough to adjust.

Understanding the skill level of your opponents is the whole point of exploitative poker.

These type of games are generally all about post-flop play. Post flop are where the biggest bets are (hence the biggest mistakes).

How dare someone write a book on how to beat games that actually exist, rather than your theoretical everyone playing perfectly and losing to rake games that don't

You're not grasping the 6000 hours - it didn't sound like this was over a 10-20 year period, this sounded more recent. But it really doesn't matter - everyone has an opinion I just wouldn't waste my time like that.

It’s been about ten years maybe more

Limping in with sort of junk may work if you are an old school limit player who is really good at reading donks, but it doesn't work for everyone.

There is an error on the back cover. The end of the title says "Let Them Give You" rather than "Help Them Give You".

If you had bothered to read this thread instead of just pounding the same point over and over, you would have seen that he actually clarified that it over about 15 years.
That's about one 7 hour session per week.

Thanks. I've fixed it.

Mason

If you needed to consult an "expert" to help you with simple math that any normal kid masters in middle school, you are incapable of providing meaningful criticism of anything having to do with poker strategy.

I read The Theory of Poker more than 20 years ago, before I walked into a public cardroom for my first session of 4/8 limit. I certainly was no "expert" as a complete novice, and I already understood this stuff.

You have mountains of data, but show no signs of intelligence whatsoever. No one should pay any attention to your nonsense.

I limped A A early in a 1-2NL game as there a an active raiser to $15 behind me. Sure enough, he made it $15, he got 3 callers by the time it got back to me. I made it $100 and only the first caller tanked called. Flop came T 8 6 with one heart. I shoved $120 effective. He tanked and called with Ah Qh. Turn & river was 33 and I won. I was shocked I got both the preflop and post flop call.