if the first raise is to $20 it doesn't change the logic. I remembered it as three limpers but that also doewn't change the logic.

I agree the reraise should be higher. I was using a proof technique of hypothesizing the smaller raise that will always be called because if that beats the alternative and the larger raise is better, still, than the larger reraise, which won't always be called, is clearly the better play.

Also the "face up" aspect isn't going to phase a lot of 1-3 players if they flop top pair.

How many of you naysayers have actually tried this play?

And with post 186 Deuce does it. He gets hisdream. Getting one of his post recognized by the man whose book he hates. And then that man explains to deuce why he does not seem to grasp certain concepts in the next post, crushing deuce. But no worry, deuce will minimum 38 more post in this thread and he will overcome all obstacles and attacks on his criticsms to become deuce the legend.

aren’t we 300 deep though? if there is a raise to 20 and 3-4 calls we have no 3bet non allin size, we either peel or jam

Why go by those rules. You are playing fish at 1/3. Make it 75 and get 3 callers. The sizing is going to look suspicious, particularly combined with the limp. Would be a probably against some mediocre regs at 2/5.

Do we balance by sometimes doing this with suited connectors? Then maybe get allin with a draw representing AA/KK. Sometimes cbet/fold or check/fold.

purely based on the 5 hands and the follow up comments, the author is 15 years behind the curve with these ideas he shares in this topic. these are 2008 pokerstars nl25 full ring plays.

Obviously if the limpers will call a supersized original raise, the play is wrong. I am just mainly pointing out that the necessity to expect a raise behind you to be almost 100% of the time is incorrect. 25% is plenty under certain circumstances. If you assume no one folds in either scenario the average amount the opponents, put into the pot preflop is higher under those circumstances. If your reraise gets folds that is also probably OK too.

There is no such thing as being behind the curve 15 years if we are talking about exploits that can entice players to put money in bad if they would otherwise fold when going the standard route

Concepts would be true in 1508 HU for castles, 2008 stars nl25, and 2023 1/3 nl at Caesars

My twinge is long gone. But I can remember going to a friend to AC a few times (he had a car I didn't) to play 10 dollar blackjack and being super excited. I also remember him dropping me off at the train on the way home


It was an above ground stop, absolutely freezing out and I couldn't wait to do it again.

25NL from 2008 is probably about as close as you can get to live 1/3.

There are posts in this forum and elsewhere from live 1/2, 1/3, 2/5, etc. games which are like I raised to 3xBB, got 5 callers and range cbet 1/4 pot. Now those posters are trying to play GTO, but have no idea what they are doing.

As far as the limp/reraise with KK only needed for it to be raised 25% of the time, you can't look at the preflop pot size, but at your expectation in limped, single raised, and 3-bet pots. Also, there is a probably with turning your hand sort of face up, even if only a few of the players will see what you are doing. Even without the limp/raise, 3-bets at 1/3 are often, and from some players always, AA/KK. So there is an issue that you are highly unbalanced and some players may suspect what you have.

Okay 4 limps at 1/3 NL. You Limp KK in the above example. The button makes it 20. Now all 4 limpers call. There is $107 in the pot ($104 profit if you take it down right here!!!). You could make it $20 x 2.5 = $50 + (4 x $20) = $130.

If everyone folds, you just made $104 without a showdown. I think that's pretty damn cool and great for live poker where you need to be making money in spots where you're not getting your stack washed through the variance spin-cycle.

Now let's say only the original raiser calls you because he thinks you're full of it. "Who the **** would overlimp KK in that spot anyway?" He asks himself begrudgingly. The pot would be $4 + $80 + $130 + $130 = $340~ after rake with $170 behind. If the guy has any pair / makes any pair then he's probably not folding when you jam and he's getting 3-1 on a call.

So how do I feel about this play?

If you shove, and pick up 100 if they fold and on average about 250 if you are called, and you are called half the time, your expectation is about 175. If you make it 75, not sure how your expectation compares. Then you need to look at your expectation in a single raised pot and your expectation in a limped pot. I think you need for it to be raised more than 25% of the time for limping to be best.

I was thinking more of not shoving for the 3! with KK. If you are going to limp and shove, it might be better to have like AK/AQ/JJ or maybe something weaker as a semibluff.

I used to buyin for the minimum at 2/5 and then limp/shove in ep with like AK (of course with some limp/folds and limp/calls to balance). In 2/5 games, the pots were often 4-way or more, and there were often limpers, and the limps usually got raised. Didn't try it in late position or more less than allin.

Give btn a raising range and see how often that are raising pre here



Btn prob needs 88+

JTs+ to raise


What’s that like 15% of hands ?


So 15% of the time button raises,85% of the time button calls


Sb and bb prob have tighter ranges


To get through all three without a raise prob happens 75% of the time?


What do tho guys think? We can easily figure this out.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That sounds like 30 seconds of work he doesn't owe you. I highly recommend getting a life.

Your raising range is not buttons raising range. David said he was expecting a raise. It’s quite likely btn has a 35% raising range.

To figure out what the likelihood of a raise behind you is it is easiest to calculate the chance of no raise and subtract it from 1.

So let say sb and bb are 10% and button is 35% then no raise is .65*.9*.9 =.526 so rhe chance of a raise happening is 47%.

You are a pro right? You need to be amble to figure this out by yourself.

Deuce with post 199 itt. Still has some things about that KK hand he needs to get off his chest.

I hold both Sklansky and Malmuth in the highest regard. I've learned so much from them over the years that I consider them like mentors.

I await this book with great anticipation and an open mind.

No I’m retired Tyvm. And I said I estimate buttons raising range to be 15% of hands, you estimated 35%

Pulled from poker news-


Top 7%

If you run into a very tight opponent, expect he or she to be opening something like the top 7% of hands from early or even middle position. Only the tightest ranges will play this way.

What does that look like? About as strong as you'd expect:

88
ATs, AQo
KJs


Top 15%

Opening the top 15% of hands is still quite tight but allows a bit more play down to the strong offsuit Broadways, most of the suited aces, and all of the suited Broadways.

It's probably close to a "typical" opening range for a standard live player:

66
A5s , ATo
K9s , KJo
Q9s , JTs
Top 35%

If you run into a player who is aggressively trying to steal seemingly every time it's folded to them in late position, their range might be in the top 35% or so of hands, or potentially even wider.

That's going to include a great many suited combos with even just one Broadway, as well as some fairly weak offsuit holdings down to jack-nine:

33
A2s , A5o
K2s , K8o
Q4s , Q9o
J7s , J9o
T7s
97s
87s

It looks to me like they will be raising us from the btn after we limp with the top 7% of hands. If sb and bb are like 4% and 5% we could say we get 3! About 16% of the time

Or in other words, 86% of the time we see the flop 6 ways or more

11.76%~ of the time it goes to the flop without a raise you flop a massively disguised set of Kings with the potential to take down a huge pot $$$.

What's the potential?

If the flop is K high...

1. What are the odds someone holds the last K in their hand if we're 6-7 ways to the flop?

2. What are the chances someone without a K in their hand will pay us off?

You do realize that there are other ways to win a huge pot on a King high flop, right?

You have to consider the blocking effects. In my experience at least 3 or 4 of the limpers are going to have KJo, you can't make trup kk if there are no more k left in the deck.

Yes that’s true, the question is what move has the most EV/which moves have higher EV rankings than others. I truly don’t know the EV of limping here. I don’t think it’s negative EV but it’s possible that it is depending on how we play the river. We know folding is 0 EV, I wonder what the EV of limping is and I wonder what the EV of minraising is as well

Folding
Limping
Or raising


As far as winning a big pot goes, we will big ones when we overset people and make FHs against straights/flushes but we get rocked when they have straights or flushes.

Attempting the limp reraise with AK does have arguments for it that KK doesn't have if the reraise is large enough to often fold everybody. AK doesn't mind nearly as much as KK when that happens. AK also doesn't mind as much when the play doesn't work since it is far more likely to get a flop that allows it to easily save the money it would have cost it to raise originally. That doesn't mean that the play with KK isn't sometimes good as well especially if the reraise is the size that should get at least one caller.

Meanwhile though this whole argument is silliness. The play was mentioned only to highlight that players should always be contemplating out of the box alternatives when circumstances are unusual. We never implied that this was the default play. In fact, to quote two sentences from the book that were written well before this thread:

"The big bet play against small stakes players, especially the ones who seem inexperienced, can be used on any street, but the most obvious times would be preflop or on the river. Make that ultra big raise with aces or kings rather than worrying about them folding hands that you would fold."

Aside from the general admonition to constantly be thinking whether there is an opportunity to make an unusual play the KK play does not at all give a good idea as to what is in the book. The Table of Contents posted earlier does. The focus on that one play reminds me of how the press will focus on one paragraph of a notable person's 300-page autobiography because that paragraph mentions an affair with Rock Hudson.

Agree. Set of kings on king high flop might be worst case scenario to get paid off