I haven't been keeping up with the latest developments in this area so this was eye opening. We now have a couple of real-time AI driven solvers on the market that can solve for dynamic sizes. That is pretty crazy. I wonder how long some versions of this have been used privately destroying the games without anyone knowing.

I can see a future where an operator will decide to offer RTA built in their site. Sort of what GG did with HUDs. If RTAs become rampant, the games will dry up very quickly and this might be their best way to level the playing field. Obviously this will be a disaster for pros but operators don't exist to sustain pros, they need games running and can't operate if accounts using RTAs syphon the money pool.

That would be ridiculous though. You are comparing something (HUDs) which gives you more information to make a decision. It is an extra layer of information on which to base your decision.

RTA is completely different, It is telling you the correct play.

Yes I know, it is very different but the idea is the same. They're both something that a lot of people use (in the case of RTA it is against the rules but v hard to enforce) to gain an edge over those who don't use them and an operator could decide to offer it to everyone to mitigate that edge.

I'm not saying it will happen anytime soon but the endgame is basically the end of online poker as we know it. Either because of rampant prohibited RTA use or because of universal access to RTAs. In both cases players would end up unable to gain a sufficient edge to beat the rake.

It is very improbable and the backlash would be immense but I can see that as a solution an operator could use to defend their player base from prohibited RTA. In the end, the perfect ecosystem for an operator is everyone flipping for 0ev and paying rake.

Either way, the future of poker is live poker.

This is a very interesting topic. Having dived head first into the outskirts of this software in terms of scraping hand histories from a live stream there is nothing stopping users from using an RTA whilst playing. What I would find more concerning is sites having in-house players that share hole card information that are unregulated. Sites like pokerstars I would say have a very good rta detection background and most likely be ahead of anyone in the game.

at this stage i honestly think the only true solution is to reduce timebanks to like 20 seconds

Well from what I have seen is players can receive information in under 3 seconds and they are playing zoom so I don’t think that’s really viable. I really think it’s on the sites side to enforce network software that goes beyond the “playing pc”

Perhaps the most popular site in Korea (black market) has 7-second timebanks. If you are OOP and don't act, you fold (not a check). It is enough time to click one of the buttons fold, check, 1/4, half pot, full pot or all-in. 95% of players only use those buttons.

To use RTA like GTO wizard while playing is a special skill that requires some training. Changing table position, stack sizes and looking up the solves in real-time is profitable, but not easy. You have to be fully immersed. If you are using some screen capture technology that is spitting out solutions (push the button bot), that would be far easier to work with. Setting up something like that is costly and not something openly advertised.

Limit the numbers of hands you can study in a day with gtowizzard? 50 or 100, problem solved

GTOWizard Users arent even the Main Problem, there are already fully automatic Software Solutions which display the accurate custom Solution for every Spot instant and in real time on another Computer. This includes real time Turns and Rivers of course, too.

Not sure if something similar has already been mentioned, but the only way I see the RTA issue resolved is by treating RTA and collusion like the SEC treats insider trading where, based on the severity of the case, the offender would be facing fraud charges. This would unfortunately require that the markets be broken down country by country so that the corresponding jurisdictions are able to apply their laws.

Looking at how well various spouses of US politicians have done in the market the idea the SEC stops insider trading is laughable. Does mean you need to be connected to swindle the serfs.

The other PC doesn't need to be connected to the same network. If you have an offline cloud setup it can even be a cold computer not connected to any network.

I have said this before in the thread. If sites really want to try and combat this problem then it requires a radical shift in thinking and a completely new approach.

One way I can think of would be using some sort of headset similar to the VR ones currently in use like the Oculus Quest. This headset is tracking everything. It has cameras on the outside that provide a map of the entire playing area, tracking all physical objects in the environment and they are tracking the user's body as it moves in the environment. They have cameras on the inside tracking head and eye movement, along with a whole host of other sensors tracking a wide array of other stuff.

The experience doesn't necessarily even have to change that much as it could be some sort of AR headset rather than VR where the user is still in the same physical space playing on a laptop/computer. rather than in VR.

It would make cheating in any sense almost impossible. No more collusion, no more hole card sharing, and no more RTA.

make the history of searches public including timestamps

so when player A is very suspicious you can look up the hands the solved that day.
if it turns out he solved hands he was currently in he is clearly cheating and should be punished
if it turns out he didnt solve any hands he was in, you can be less suspicious about him

maybe its a bit of a privacy issue but who cares if someone finds out you solved a lot of hands in a fair manner... only players solving spots they are currently playing would really have something to fear

First, you would need all the different solver companies to agree to this of which there are now many. It would be near impossible to get them all to agree to give you this data. Even if you could get them to all agree a company would see a gap in the market and come in and refuse to give the information and swallow up the user base from the other companies.

What about all the private solvers that exist? Do they get a free pass because they have the resources to have a privately built solution?

Complee non-runner of an idea.

cheater

it would also help if every single poker personality wasn't shilling these products with a promo code, but it's ofc not the main issue

The only way forward for online poker without RTA is basically going to be webcams. Similar to chess. And most at lower stakes aren't going to be willing to deal with that.

Unfortunately, online poker is likely going to be a casualty of AI. It's not the only one.....lots and lots of things in all industries will die due to AI and other such software. That's just how things are evolving.



The interesting part for me is that everyone was/is fine with solved pre flop ranges. For years no one had an issue with someone have a notebook or a folder on their desktop that told them when to open, when to 3bet, when to fold to 3bet, when to call a 3bet, when to 4bet....etc etc etc.

That was/is fine......when it's literally zero difference in having post flop solves. You have solves for a large part of the game tree (pre flop) that tells people exactly what to do, and that was fine. But now it's gone a step further and people are somehow shocked. Just a natural progression.

And sure, you can claim a HUD doesn't make decisions for you.....but let's be honest......in many cases it does. If your HUD says someone folds 80% to steals......that decision is made for you. And many stats in huds will (more so in the past when people weren't as educated in poker) will be lopsided enough that while sure, you're technically making the decision.....you're really not.

You have the exact same opportunity to make a decision when a solve says to c/r 70% of the time. You can decide to not listen to it.....your choice.




I'm not advocating for RTA......but I'm also not going to stamp my feet and pretend it's not going to get worse or possible downright the only way not to lose money online.




Something like a 20s shot clock + webcam is about the only way forward.

Otherwise, just accept that online poker is eventually (maybe already) an RTA/AI world.

What if one reg wants to get rid of competition by getting another reg banned? Say he's just observing a hand another reg is playing and checks it in the solver at the moment the hand is being played.

6 second time banks and camera imo. The only way to stop active RTA.

i guess this can be checked by username or ip adress..
btw never claimed this is a full proof measure, it isnt close. Just looking for a step in the right direction and i think this would deter some

For sure a good move. Add the camera/audio and limited timebank and it's the best that can be done for now. 20 seconds is way too much though.
With timebank this big, we might need to add body cavity searches for teh anal beads detection.

Another good idea would be to ban anyone whose first name starts with Ali and whose last name ends with Ismirovic.

For general conversation, can anyone tell me why HUDs aren't considered RTA by the majority of the poker community? Why is there no big push to ban them as well?

Show me a human who is capable of taking detailed notes/data on every single spot in every single hand they play for eternity.......


Obviously with modern online poker most people are more aware of HUDs and how they work at least a little.



But 15 years ago, people with a much deeper understanding than the rest of the population used HUDs to take millions of dollars of real money from people because they had a super-human ability to record data on every single hand.

Somehow this is perfectly fine.


RTA is RTA is RTA........you either have to get rid of it all or just open the flood gates.



Any other solution and the game isn't fair for everyone involved.

HUDS weren't opposed because the bright kids used them to swindle the others. RTA is opposed because it makes it so there are no bright kids; if you are using RTA properly you aren't the one playing the program is.