Do you think games that are easier to beat make it easier or harder for smaller stakes grinders to move up in stakes?

I judged the chances of trying to achieve such a goal to be 0%, so didn't entertain the idea of pursuing it.
If you use your brain you should be able to realise that yes, a and b were the only possible scenarios, this isn't a hollywood movies and companies don't make changes simply to be nice to their customers, you have to demonstrate to them that a change they have recently made is bad for their bottom line.


Personally, I think I put more time into this than anyone probably (maybe disregarding Elky) and have barely played on GG this year and have no real intention of playing on GG in the future.

I did it (yes selfishly), but because I thought my stable of mostly MSNL players would benefit from a player action group succeeding and demonstrating to sites that players can organize against changes that negatively impact them. I also thought that getting more player input on sites decisions would be beneficial for myself and my stable.

Maybe I'm wrong, we will see I guess, but engaging in this thread is probably not beneficial for me or you at this point, so I'll take my leave and see how it pans out.

Glgl

coordi put it really well.

Why it is only A or B?

How about the whole thing literally has no effect on low stakes players. This one is the most obvious and it is totally disregarded. Not even mentioned.

My ex GF had kind of the same logic you have "in my mind it was x". Since you think it was impossible you made sure it was impossible and never even attempted it and by that being the catalyst of that reality.

The fact that then you call it a win for the community is still never ever supported by any legit data, just make belief, gas lighty nothingness.

I understand that you rather quit the thread as the whole thing is kind of one sided not just in the community sentiment but also in the logic department.

If any of you in the discussions with GG had any real intention to help anyone else other than yourselves, you would have and could have had the power to rally more ppl around you AND also reach something because if you had the power to change it for yourselves because you (the HS players) are such a vital part of this whole industry, then you indeed had the leverage! The fact that you succeeded proves that fact and the fact that you never even tried to change anything else, but what benefits your games directly proves everything else the "toxic commenters" are having a problem with! You could have at least acted out a scenario where you pretend to try and do something for the community you so brazenly claim to care about!
None of that was done, because it was never about that. And it would have been fine had you not tried to sell it as a win for the whole community and all that jack!

And btw the very flawed logic that keeping regs at high stakes happy benefits the community (as pointed out before being false, because it stops others ascending) could have been said the other was around too, that by helping the lower levels you would help yourselves and the poker community as a whole. Using the exact same points brought up by you and your peers. It is kind of the same bs argument.



And if anyone thinks im angry as mentioned by other comments. Im not. Im just here for logical arguments and trying to represent what ppl have tried to say throughout the topic. I dont care what happens to online poker as i have said it before i've no stake in it. However i really dont tolerate lying, specially for selfish interest, and why not shed some light on that, with some logic and a few questions (that to this point remained unanswered).

@PlasticElephant

Great job, and honestly you owe all these bitter people in the thread 0 explainations.

They will find issues with every single little thing, even if none of it concerns them.

+1

thanks for everything George, just mute the haters

Yeah George, def don’t waste any more time on the 5-10 trolls/failed poker players who are bitter towards ppl that actually make money from the game. You’ve done more than enough

yeh nice one, whats your favourite coffee btw plasticelephant?

Care to elaborate?

checked because of that post. Rake has not been lowered on GG anywhere between 200-1knl.

Rake is not going to become lower at nl200-nl1k. GG clearly by far has the best rake structure for nl1k games and it isn't even close. They have more running games than any other site on any given time, litterally zero chance they would say "Hey how can we make more money , lets lower the rake" .

To me it’s silly to expect high stakes players to organise a boycott for lower steaks. However it would be nice if they casually talked about rake and help educate the community.

The reality is they are part of a small group of voices that casual players actually listen to. Smaller steaks guys can bang on about rake all they want, they arnt going to get anywhere.

To me the way forward is not trying to strong arm sites into favourable changes. To me it is to better educate the player pool on how rake works and the effects it has. This is where high steaks guys can help for the good of the game.


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This is a really good take imo. How can these midstakes/lowstakes/non-online players be salty about the way this boycott went down? And how can they not see it as an overall success for online poker, specifically for the future potential of being able to be a profesional online player.

The way lower stakes rake is decreased is by education. Having more players en masse not play a site because of poor rake. Not by expecting highstakes players to boycott on their behalf.

Short handed rake was halved for nl500-1k.

That's a pretty dumb statement
Why not ask them
They used it as being bad for the whole community when in reality it only affected a tiny%
Education lol you do realize what happens when everyone at low stakes get more educated
Little hint. It gets harder to win overall as skill lvl goes up and then the higher rake is even worse in a more skilled pool
Holy **** ppl in this thread really are stupid

So in fact you are suggesting to not educate the masses and keep them ignorant so that a few can win? I ask you then who really is the parasite around here?

Im not salty. Im pointing out flaws in the arguments and ppl take it personally instead of arguing with my or most of the other ppl's points on the same side.

To your other point:
Ye what you are saying is totally acceptable. The problem (for the xth time) is that they pretend that what they do is everyone's interest. It had been written down multiple times by their reps! All im doing here is pairing their claims with their actions and highlighting how they dont match.

They dont owe anything to anyone else. No problemo. But don't pretend you do anything else. Or if you do, let us see it in action not just in the plea case when they needed the traction. Not to mention they issued the call to action to everyone, and they then said when the opportunity opened to negotiate (partially thx to all the traction and buzz), that everyone else can *** off and do it for themselves XD
You can literally taste the irony!

And in my opinion only those who have seats at the negotiating table have a chance to negotiate. Worker unions work the same way. It would be pretty revolt inducing if at a general strike the ppl that are part of the negotiations would only negotiate for themselves while at the same time asking for general strike/support from everyone else.

I dont know how this is so hard to grasp.

It is not anger, it is not bitterness. No emotion. Only facts, and statements paired with (a lack of) action.

I mean to be fair the high stakes grinders did boycott and reduce the 500-1k 3 handed rake by half.

Maybe the mid stakes grinders can band together and boycott mid stakes so the rake is reduced.

Monkey see monkey do might just work in this spot, instead of crying about it.

Note- thanks very much to George and the other hs regs that boycotted. It has set a precedent that we have a voice that can and will be heard in the future in our beloved game.

Just pointing out the stupidity of your statement
Educating players on poker doesn't make higher rake easier to avoid
It makes the rake more of an issue as games are harder to beat
It's simple logic
If I had my way of pirate all those solvers and courses and post them for free and stop these "coaches" preying on losing/breakeven players.

Everyone congratulating the Elephant guy lol
This can't be real
He just admitted he did it to keep his stable happy and keep them making money for him
(Surely he would not have his students/horses playing on the site like he said he tells ppl to do all the time)
Seems like alot of lies
I can assure you if it wasn't the case he wouldn't even be here arguing
That says it all
Self Centred and greedy like I said from the get go

I'd also love to know where he got the millions of hands for that player database.

It's exhausting reading what the jaded lower stake players are posting in this thread. I stuck up for you guys when PokerStars abolished SuperNovaElite as I felt the program was unfair to both lower stake players that might be willing to shot take as well as higher stake casual players as higher volume players in my opinion were unfairly rewarded with a rake reduction in that case.

The same is not applicable here. We should be looking for reasons to make it attractive for players to move up in stakes for many reasons and those players definitely deserve a discount for doing so in this case.

Congrats to the high stakes players on GG coming together and getting some big changes made.

I do wonder though how much money they left on the table. Seems GG responded very quickly and was more than happy to make these reductions. Unless there were some very tense negotiations that we weren't privy to. Could they have gotten rake down to ACR or Stars levels? Maybe.

Can you explain ? I would have thought the rake amount taken is capped per hand on pretty much every popular site at some point.

(I haven't checked, but am curious about your knowledge base, especially when you claim "ZERO chance" of some decision that the optimal rake structure might be capped lower than current rates. How do you think the concepts of rakeback and a pricing cap on rake evolved?)

Thanks for sharing.

Why would high stakes regs want to make it easier for mid stakes regs to succeed and potentially move up? How would that benefit them?

Probably doesn't hurt them much either. Outside of taking up a seat a whale could be in.

Of course they did it for themselves, why would they spend their time helping a bunch of random low stakes poker players? Do you go around in life helping random people with their problems? That's not how the world works. They owe you nothing.

How would they help anyway? There are thousands of low stakes players, a boycott just wouldn't work, esp considering lots of low stakes games run all day so GG have no incentive to lower rake there.