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FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP) FTP Discussion Thread (Everything but big new news goes here. Cliffs in OP)
View Poll Results: Do you want the AGCC to regulate the new FTP?
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1,156 56.58%
No
887 43.42%

10-11-2011 , 03:22 AM
2 lobsters and five fish!
10-11-2011 , 03:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hdemet
I am 100% prepared to change my point of view and opinions if anyone cares to present some evidence to support why I should take a more optimistic stance.

All that is before me to date supports that player funds were stolen by a bunch of fraudulent individuals and thieves and crooks and conmen who paid the shareholders money allegedly from profits ass dividends when the reality was it was player funds

The same goes for Tapie and his proposals...I see absolutely nothing at all to instill any confidence that this proposed deal has anything but a tiny chance of going through.

Show me the light please and I SHALL BELIEVE...but all I have before me is almost total darkness
So much to write, so little motivation...

My point is mostly psychological I guess. You're making judgements even though there is not enough information available to make an accurate and reliable judgement. Hence you're speculating, but you sell those judgements of yours as facts. This is not only referring to the chances of the deal going through, but also your judgement about the owners being thieves and crooks. For this judgement to be made you would need to understand their reasoning and their intentions. Reality surely is giving us the possibility that they just mismanaged FTP terribly. Before you judge a person for their morals you need to understand their point of view. Results rarely only offer one possible answer.

This judgmental character of yours is what I was referring to and that shows itself for example when you say you 'pity' people who are hopeful and dreaming of getting their money back. Even if the likelihood in reality is lower than their perceived likelihood, to show pity for them is not in good taste.
Would you pity people for believing in god? Surely you could say that the likelihood of gods existence is very much lower than 10%. Pity would disregard that the hopes and feelings associated with the belief have a quality in themselves.
I'm aware that reality (if you're speculation turns out to be right) is more sure to catch up with one if FTP is not paying, but that doesn't give 'pity' a better notion.

etc. etc. objective truth vs subjective quality and so on and so forth.. maybe you get the point.
10-11-2011 , 03:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hairy Chinese Kid
2 lobsters and five fish!
Absolutely NO FISH..they arent good enough for our Ray...but maybe a bottle or two of Louis Roederer to wash them down with
10-11-2011 , 03:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller866
I read an article today that Ivey was spotted in some small casinos in Europe, http://translate.google.com/translat...s%2F34116.html

how many of the others are wandering around? It could just be a simple question of not having an address to fedex the forms.
Pretty much every 4-5 star hotel I ever stayed in (all around the world) had a business center with a printer.....you just email him the document, he prints and signs and presto chango....he gives it to someone to mail....email is such a novel 20th century invention....there has to be another explanation....no one is talking about the owner vote....why?

The only logical conclusions are that the Tapie deal needs to confirm something from the DOJ first or there is a big disagreement with the owners about this deal or some part of it (or both I suppose)...since its hard to imagine the owners would reject a deal that pays the players there must some important aspect of the deal that isn't working for Tapie or the owners just yet....which may be the spawn of these rumors...

Last edited by DoubleDealing; 10-11-2011 at 03:44 AM.
10-11-2011 , 03:36 AM
In troubling times like these, I like to remember the uplifting wisdom of Chairman Mao:
Spoiler:
It's always darkest before it's totally dark.
10-11-2011 , 03:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrryjrryjin
...your judgement about the owners being thieves and crooks. For this judgement to be made you would need to understand their reasoning and their intentions.
They were lying to the AGCC regarding their balance sheet, whilst paying themselves huge monthly dividends. If they had honest intentions why would they lie to their regulator?
10-11-2011 , 03:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrryjrryjin
So much to write, so little motivation...

My point is mostly psychological I guess. You're making judgements even though there is not enough information available to make an accurate and reliable judgement. Hence you're speculating, but you sell those judgements of yours as facts. This is not only referring to the chances of the deal going through, but also your judgement about the owners being thieves and crooks. For this judgement to be made you would need to understand their reasoning and their intentions. Reality surely is giving us the possibility that they just mismanaged FTP terribly. Before you judge a person for their morals you need to understand their point of view. Results rarely only offer one possible answer.

This judgmental character of yours is what I was referring to and that shows itself for example when you say you 'pity' people who are hopeful and dreaming of getting their money back. Even if the likelihood in reality is lower than their perceived likelihood, to show pity for them is not in good taste.
Would you pity people for believing in god? Surely you could say that the likelihood of gods existence is very much lower than 10%. Pity would disregard that the hopes and feelings associated with the belief have a quality in themselves.
I'm aware that reality (if you're speculation turns out to be right) is more sure to catch up with one if FTP is not paying, but that doesn't give 'pity' a better notion.

etc. etc. objective truth vs subjective quality and so on and so forth.. maybe you get the point.
I draw my conclusions and express MY OPINIONS based on what is in front of me.

You and others have different opinions based on absolutely nothing at all and certainly not on what is in the public domain.

As information comes in I will constantly reassess but as previously stated there is nothing but gloom and doom to be drawn from what is in the public domain but you cannot accuse me of making unrealistic conclusions from what is actually out there.

There is absolutely no evidence to support optimism about any investment deal to save FTP yet repeatedly through absolutely understandable desperation people choose to believe the drivel being fed to them and delude themsleves into believing Tapie is "The One" and illiogically conclude a deal from him is forthcoming and imminent.

See things for what they are: Player money has been stolen and that it currently resides in shareholders pockets.

Or have you an alternate "Truth" as to where player funds are at present (and please PLEASE dont tell me its with the DoJ or thieving poker players or payment processors as that horse has been flogged to death and shown to be false) or explain to me how the dividend payments have actually come from profits and not player funds.

Surely you are not disputing these FACTS?
10-11-2011 , 03:47 AM
I have a question regardless of the legalities...

What is the right thing for the shareholders to do?

Give dividend money back or keep it?

Does it matter whether they knew what was going on at the company or whether they had involvement in the running the company now that they do know that those dividends came from the player funds?

Is there any justification for them keeping all the dividend money?
10-11-2011 , 03:48 AM
PS I know the answers from my perspective and what I would do in their position and just want people to answer those questions for themselves.
10-11-2011 , 03:50 AM
hey hdemet. when do you think i will see any money from full tilt?
10-11-2011 , 03:53 AM
Hdemet this maybe of interest to you if juanda has spent all the money he received from full tilt and won't pay back his dividend what are my chances of getting his first born through the small claims court?

http://yfrog.com/j215174063j
10-11-2011 , 03:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DoubleDealing
Pretty much every 4-5 star hotel I ever stayed in (all around the world) had a business center with a printer.....you just email him the document, he prints and signs and presto chango....he gives it to someone to mail....email is such a novel 20th century invention....there has to be another explanation....no one is talking about the owner vote....why?

The only logical conclusions are that the Tapie deal needs to confirm something from the DOJ first or there is a big disagreement with the owners about this deal or some part of it (or both I suppose)...since its hard to imagine the owners would reject a deal that pays the players there must some important aspect of the deal that isn't working for Tapie or the owners just yet....which may be the spawn of these rumors...

The only owner we know for sure was negotiating was Chris, and he's the only one we know for certain is being staked into the new company.

Other than hard feelings, another issue could be once they agree to the deal they have no negotiating leverage with the DOJ to say they won't agree to the deal unless their individual charges are reduced/dropped.
10-11-2011 , 03:55 AM
Firstly, Hdemet your posts are very well written...

Secondly, we all have to admit that he has a point... even if we don't really want to admit it.

I don't want to be pessimistic about a Tapie/Full Tilt deal, (like a large number of people I have money trapped on there), but it doesn't look good, and there's certainly no really positive suggestion that Tilt will be saved and that we'll get our money back; the negative variables outweigh the positive ones for certain...

And when I see defenders of Full Tilt trying to claim that the owners and managers of the site did 'nothing wrong' and aren't 'crooks', I do wonder just how overly-optimistic everyone here seems to be...
10-11-2011 , 03:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by VarianceMinefield
hey hdemet. when do you think i will see any money from full tilt?
Becasue I genuinely believe that the shareholders will have to give up their dividend money eventually either voluntarily or involuntarily through the courts.

They cannot defend themsleves in court as common sense will prevail in all the civil suits that will follow when FTP is finally wound up and also proceeds from the sale of any assets will also go to players too but the bulk will come from shareholders.

There is no way they are going to be able to argue they are not in possession of stolen player funds. (but I do know some lawyers who disagree).
10-11-2011 , 04:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by majestick
Firstly, Hdemet your posts are very well written...

Secondly, we all have to admit that he has a point... even if we don't really want to admit it.

I don't want to be pessimistic about a Tapie/Full Tilt deal, (like a large number of people I have money trapped on there), but it doesn't look good, and there's certainly no really positive suggestion that Tilt will be saved and that we'll get our money back; the negative variables outweigh the positive ones for certain...

And when I see defenders of Full Tilt trying to claim that the owners and managers of the site did 'nothing wrong' and aren't 'crooks', I do wonder just how overly-optimistic everyone here seems to be...
pm me if you think a deal is very unlikely and you have funds on the site.

hdemet literally just spews non stop in this thread. he has no other life. he does nothing at all useful anymore and just rambles so not sure why people still act like he is at all credible. he has an opinion, and that is fine. he doesn;t need to just rehash it 500 times in this thread with nothing new to add.
10-11-2011 , 04:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tamiller866
What you are saying is exactly what I believed up until a week ago, but with Tapie making the argument that US player winnings are not a legal debt, those percentages have reduced significantly (at least for US players) in my estimation.

Legal action may be the best course for ROW players, but the best hope for US players seems to me to be this purchase being negotiated.


Tapei would have zero reason to pay to fund us player deposits. They would get zero benefit from it as they would likely be banned from the us forever. Any kind of requirement would be ~150 million dollar surcharge to the purchase. Give. The likely level of profitability even being massively generous, it would kill the entire deal

There is no deal if they have to pay us players, large fines and then worry about the row and business. I noted earlier that for someone to come in and ean up this mess completely and get things running again it would be close to 1 billion dollars. Does anyone think any buyer is even going to put up a fraction of that? It is not like FTP was spinning off lots of profits In fact there is still no public evidence they were profitable any time recently.

Investing one billion dollars into a business that is not profitable, is probably banned from the us forever and has a horrible reputation, that is the stuff business empires are made of...

It would be like if I was a drug addict who owed bookies 65gs and while winning 200 a week I asked you to buy a stake in me, 50% for 100k. How many people would make that deal? Add in I just had sex with your wife and got your kid hooked on h too. That is like the decision to buy fulltilt now.
10-11-2011 , 05:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prospace
Darkelf is not aware of the Jack Abramoff - Native American Casino debacle. Jeff Ifrah actually worked for the same firm that Abramoff worked for at the time of the scandal. Jeff still has financial interest in that law firm. The firm is Greenberg Traurig http://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffifrah.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenberg_Traurig
In January 2001, lobbyist Jack Abramoff left Preston Gates & Ellis to join Greenberg Traurig. Abramoff brought a book of business then worth more than $6 million annually to Greenberg Traurig, according to his own estimates. At the firm he assembled "Team Abramoff," a lobbying team that was involved in the Jack Abramoff Indian lobbying scandal and the monetary influence of Jack Abramoff. A Greenberg spokesman said that its federal lobbying revenue in 2005 was 1 percent of its total revenues of $860 million.

In 2000, before Abramoff joined the firm, Greenberg had $3.3 million in lobbying fees. After he joined in 2001, the firm took in $16.2 million in fees. By 2002, that number jumped to $17.7 million, and $25.5 million by 2003.[13] The firm became one of the top 10 of Washington lobbying firms, moving from 16th place to fourth, according to the National Journal.[14]

In early 2004 Greenberg Traurig fired Abramoff and subsequently received praise from federal investigators and members of Congress for its cooperation in the Abramoff investigation, according to the ABA Journal.[15]

On July 12, 2006, the Alabama-Coushatta tribe filed a federal racketeering lawsuit against now-convicted Abramoff and his cohorts. Greenberg Traurig was not a named defendant. Its lawsuit states that "There was a nexus between Greenberg, the enterprise and the pattern of racketeering." According to the suit, internal Greenberg e-mails showed that Abramoff associate Michael Scanlon, although not a member of the firm, "billed hours to tribal clients through Greenberg and that members of the law firm, including attorneys Kevin Ring, Shawn Vasell, Stephanie Leger, Todd Boulanger and others, fabricated hours and time entries for Scanlon." The suit also says the firm allowed checks sent by the tribe to a bogus Abramoff-linked think tank to be funneled and cashed through Greenberg Traurig.[13]


Here is how the Lobbyist under Abramoff worked:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Ab...bbying_scandal
Allegation of double dealing

On June 22, 2000, Susan Ralston e-mailed Abramoff, "I have 3 checks from elot: (1) 2 checks for $80K payable to ATR and (2) 1 check to TVC for $25K," [...] "Let me know exactly what to do next. Send to Grover? Send to Rev. Lou?"[19]

Thus eLottery money went through Norquist's foundation, Americans for Tax Reform (ATR), the Faith and Family Alliance, and Reed's company, Century Strategies, while the last check was sent to Sheldon's Traditional Values Coalition (TVC).

In 2000, Abramoff forced the Choctaws to give the Alabama Christian Coalition of America $1.15 million in installments. Norquist agreed to pass the money on to the Coalition and another Alabama antigambling group, both of which Reed was mobilizing for the fight against a proposed Alabama state lottery.

In 2002, after Abramoff worked with Reed to close the casino of the Tigua tribe, he persuaded the tribe to hire him to lobby Congress to reopen the casino.

Of the $7.7 million Abramoff and Scanlon charged the Choctaw for projects in 2001, they spent $1.2 million on their behalf and split the rest in a scheme they called "gimme five."


So basically, Jack Abramoff would use organizations like Focus on Family to put pressure on government officials and bodies to shut down Indian Casinos.
The government would shut them down, then Abramoff would contact them and say he could get them re-opened again for the right amount of money. The Indian casinos would then pay him a retainer and make donations to certain organization and PACs his friends had. The money would be distributed through the PACs to many influential politicians and the Casinos would be reopened.

So it is certainly plausible the Caesars / Wynn / NFL (Rooneys) are using these same tactics to shut down Full Tilt Poker and buy them on the cheap. They don't want the players money to go to the DOJ but rather to stay in the accounts when they own it.

The NFL used lobbyist law firm Covington and Burling to deal with Focus on Family themselves. They basically have used a poetic license on Jack Abramoff's "gimme five" scheme:
http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/b9cbd...#axzz1aOxWZQjs

High quality global journalism requires investment. Please share this article with others using the link below, do not cut & paste the article. See our Ts&Cs and Copyright Policy for more detail. Email ftsales.support@ft.com to buy additional rights. http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b9cbdaae-4...#ixzz1aOyDxRLW

In a July 31 e-mail obtained by the Financial Times, Bill Wichterman – a Washington lobbyist for the NFL who served as a top adviser to former Republican majority leader Bill Frist – encouraged conservative groups to co-sign a letter to Congress that ostensibly was written by Focus on the Family. “The threat posed by the Frank legislation is very real, and we must actively work against it,” Mr Wichterman wrote.

The letter was co-signed by the Christian Coalition and American Values, among others. It urged members of Congress to protect the integrity of the 2006 Act, and cautioned that lawmakers should be wary of “misinformation campaigns” by “foreign gambling interests”.

The NFL said the sports league did not author the Focus on the Family letter and there was nothing unusual about its alliance with the Christian groups given their mutual opposition to gambling. Focus on the Family declined to comment.


Now keep in mind that Eric Holder represented the NFL as a lawyer when he WAS AT COVINGTON and BURLING. This is a major conflict of interest. He failed to mention this in the Senate DOJ over site committee.
Thanks for the extra info...if I say it he thinks it "drivel".
10-11-2011 , 05:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hdemet
I draw my conclusions and express MY OPINIONS based on what is in front of me.

You and others have different opinions based on absolutely nothing at all and certainly not on what is in the public domain.

As information comes in I will constantly reassess but as previously stated there is nothing but gloom and doom to be drawn from what is in the public domain but you cannot accuse me of making unrealistic conclusions from what is actually out there.

There is absolutely no evidence to support optimism about any investment deal to save FTP yet repeatedly through absolutely understandable desperation people choose to believe the drivel being fed to them and delude themsleves into believing Tapie is "The One" and illiogically conclude a deal from him is forthcoming and imminent.

See things for what they are: Player money has been stolen and that it currently resides in shareholders pockets.

Or have you an alternate "Truth" as to where player funds are at present (and please PLEASE dont tell me its with the DoJ or thieving poker players or payment processors as that horse has been flogged to death and shown to be false) or explain to me how the dividend payments have actually come from profits and not player funds.

Surely you are not disputing these FACTS?
I didn't even express an opinion about the financial situation in my post or in this thread lately at all. Picture me confused how you arrived at your judgement.

Did you ever consider that not all information are publicly available and that some information you draw your conclusions upon may be false?

Can you please tell me what the thoughts of each individual you accuse of stealing and being a crook have been when the latest dividend payments have been made? Can you explain to me why FTP owes Ferguson a lot of money and what his and the involved individuals thoughts have been to let this situation come into existence? You didn't address my point about the subjective point of view being the most relevant to judge a persons morals at all.


To me it seems that you're nearly on the same level as Scott Matusow, just on the different end of the spectrum.

^_^
10-11-2011 , 05:20 AM
What a suprise...

Last edited by Mike Haven; 01-20-2012 at 05:53 PM.
10-11-2011 , 05:23 AM
One of the bigger surprises for me is how many joke poker news sites there are out there. Before BF I had no idea...
10-11-2011 , 05:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillFullTilt
What a suprise...
******ed article by another half assed site...all speculation...nothing to see here

Last edited by Mike Haven; 01-20-2012 at 05:56 PM.
10-11-2011 , 05:52 AM
Please people, just don't search for news on sites that have no reputation at all. It's just stupid.
10-11-2011 , 05:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrryjrryjin
I didn't even express an opinion about the financial situation in my post or in this thread lately at all. Picture me confused how you arrived at your judgement.

Did you ever consider that not all information are publicly available and that some information you draw your conclusions upon may be false?

Can you please tell me what the thoughts of each individual you accuse of stealing and being a crook have been when the latest dividend payments have been made? Can you explain to me why FTP owes Ferguson a lot of money and what his and the involved individuals thoughts have been to let this situation come into existence? You didn't address my point about the subjective point of view being the most relevant to judge a persons morals at all.


To me it seems that you're nearly on the same level as Scott Matusow, just on the different end of the spectrum.

^_^
Please dont put words in my mouth and my post was not just directed at you.

I will always reply to anyone even if they are critical of my views as long as I feel they are prepared to discuss and debate points logically and ratinally which you appear to want to do. However the other moronic idiots who only falme and insult I will just ignore becasue they are not worth my time.

FTP as a company stole player funds and paid them to shareholders as dividends.

I said that shareholders who do not repay dividend money now knowing they are stolen player funds are deserving of being tarred with the same brush as the management of FTP and as such are the same as being thieves and conmen and fraudsters.

Hence they are all scumbags including the owners/shareholders if they dont return dividends and as such whilst they do not return the money I feel entitlted top call them thieves and crooks etc etc.

I have expressed no comment on CF being owed $60 million but at a guess would say it had more to do with him being less materialistic and money orientated than other shareholders and less to do with player fund shortfalls but I would not exclude that. He may be one fo very few or many that comes out of all this with some credibility.

I have said in the past that the good guys (of which there must be some) associated with FTP and whom are shareholders will be made apparent in the fullness of time.

However any that do not return dividend money are still thieves and scum as they know that they are now in possession of stolen money. As and when they return some of that money I will review my opinion of them but as to date they have offered ZERO back then I stand by my accusations against them.

Judge people by their actions and to date the conclusion that they are scum, theives and cheats is more likely to be accurate than them being decent honest people and thats regardless of whther they innocently received money in the past and whether they had active input into running the company as now they know exactly where the money came from (The Players).

The owners (some of whom received payments in good faith and with little or no knowledge of what was going on) may well have been innocent at the time but now they cannot claim any innocence on the matter and must do the right thing - give back 2/3 of their dividend payments or as much as they can back to the players. This is the only thing that will redeem them

As for not all publicly available information being accurate I fully understand that and often I will state somethign along the lines of "If reports and leaks are to be believed" and I know I will be wrong on some things bu despite this I also know that I have been and am more likely to be more right on a lot of things than the things on which I am mistaken.

I am not sure why but this whole FTP situation is a very compicated one with a complicated solution but in life like most things I like to approach things in a simplistic manner so that I can come to a solution

For FTP the final solution to this problem is to get the players their funds back.

As such you need to ask where is that palyer money?

You can say it is gone (regardless of where it actually is) so then you have to find money from somehwere to pay the players their money

There are a number of ways for this to happen but not all methods are equally likely

My view on things are:

New Money from an investor - extremely unlikely as nobody will put all the money up and none have been prepared to do so to date.

Money from Payment Processors who stole it - not sure why they cant recover this?

Money from players who stole it via credit (still do not understand why onyl 9 million of this is recoverable as surely thsoe people are identifiable like the payment processors)

Money from The DoJ - a possibility

Money from Shareholders - most likely

..and thats in my opinion and I cannot understand why people dont concentrate on the the best way of getting a solution.

I also do not ubderstand why the solution needs to involve a salavation of FTP - it does not have to survive for players to get their money back and imo people are better off loking to get their funds back from other sources outside of finding a new investor.
10-11-2011 , 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MICK E JUICE
******ed article by another half assed site...all speculation...nothing to see here
Isnt this nvg? Its so funny that every site that has bad news is ******ed but every site with good news us to trust
10-11-2011 , 06:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by KillFullTilt
What a suprise...
Sounds like he's been talking to Calvin Ayre again.

Last edited by Mike Haven; 01-20-2012 at 05:56 PM.

      
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