The point of the post?

That I went thinking I would see something, and I got sometning totally different. I decided I wanted to share with everybody.

By the way, I have stories about Sam Grizzle, Oppenheim and Shulman, Sam Farha etc.

I was just telling you what I felt and my hunch was absolutely correct. Look at all these players now?

*nvm found the PSUMike thread

Ok, fair enough. I guess your point is that you thought a ton of pros were winners with large bankrolls. But, you gradually learned that a lot more people than you imagined were actually BR broke.

I was just looking for the punchline. As in ... something like:
A. I thought the highly publicized pros were winning gobs of money regularly.
B. It turns out that most are simply broke.
C. Thus, why are they glorified as such "winners"
D. The conclusion is that the broke pros have an even stronger incentive to look successful (so that they can attract more backers, loans, sponsors, etc.)
E. They will go broke again.
F. Go to "A" and repeat.

CONCLUSION: Therefore, the poker media and community should stop celebrating broke poker players. Instead, they should unearth and discover the truly successful pros so the rest of the community can learn from them.

You just lacked this type of conclusion. Apologies for the nitpicking.

he didnt even see them broke he just saw them miserable, which is what any pro is after spending that much time in a casino

does this mean tournament players go broke quickly than cash games players?

I became infinitely better at poker when I recognized this fundamental truth. Wins against good players should be viewed as incidental and not intended. If there are 2 fish at a table, those are the guys you should actively be targeting, and if you aren't, the whole table is after you and you just don't know it.

The other thing people forget is that BR management and solid play are what keep you going in this game. If you play too big or if you make mistakes, you lose, and the overwhelming majority of players do both of these. When you see these pro's getting staked, that usually tells you something is wrong. If I was crushing, why would I want to give away any of my action? If I am a good player and properly managing my BR, then I don't need a stake. The only reason they need a stake is to play above their heads or because they are losing.

The problem is if the news media tracked down the successful pros (cash and/or tourney) and the rest of the community learned from them, it would make the competition smarter and these pros would make less money.

Maybe a televised documentary on poker room owners who collect the rake would be the best approach for the community to learn from? Maybe then there would be a glut of brand new empty poker rooms and no one wanting to play anymore, LOL.

Once Full Tilt and Poker Stars no longer took US players, the party was over. It is almost impossible for most poker players not to be broke, once the free money stops flowing.

^^^yes, So when will usa comeback to the world pool? I know Pokerstars probably wants this as much as the players so there must be some light at the end the tunnel right??

Everyday we pray and we pray and we pray... so you at the crossroads, so you won't be lonely!

That's a great idea actually. But, its been years since that already happened. Almost every state has casinos, card rooms, and Indian casinos.

i liked the post although dont agree with everything. Ive watched the high roller events on TV and seen guys show up to play in shorts and flip flops and they are firing multiple bullets at $100k so you cant go by dress. I would like to hear the San Farha story though as ive always wondered about him and if he still plays high stakes.

i found a tread about Farha

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/37...20/index2.html

'Tournaments are largely a luckfest unless you are a poker god, and while a great many players think they're god, only a rare few are right.'


Probably the funniest, most ill-informed, absurd line I have ever read on this forum, this is not a stretch and for those who know will agree.


Have you ever played online for any length of time on a regular basis?

It will be clear to you that the same players are final tabling the same tournaments night after night after night, they must be in bed with the devil and lubing him up real real nice if 'tournaments are largely a luckfest'. People like you can read the forums I suppose but just don't contribute your insanity as we do not need your words like we like your money.

David, can you please explain the last line of this analysis?

Post some sharkscope graphs, then.

I understand the flip flop comment came out funny. I just meant to say that they looked more like degenerate bums rather than people that have millions. And with the "Hansen losing millions online" thread and the "is Dwan a scammer" thread, it seems like I was right.

I can attest to this 100%. I played with him in a similar situation. The player stated Tommy, bitches and moans when having a bad run even when we are talking about baby stakes for any pro or semi amature. However he seemed like a nice guy off the table. Although that image was soon changed after seeing how pulled a deadbeat move with one of the local players it is making me thing twice. His sports gambling is downright degenerate and owes money all over the place from what I am told. I know two separate individuals who are stuck making good on his behalf. These poor guys have been given nothing but excuses time and time again from Tommy. It was quite comical the last time when they read his texts aloud at our cash game that he used to frequent.

His way of thinking was so irrational, where Tommy was trying to turn it around on the guys booking his wagers by saying to his poor friends who vouched for him by saying "what do they need the money for right now, wow these guys must be hard up and tiny that they are worried about my 20k" mind you it was 6-12 months since he even made a payment. The table was pissing themselves, if its not much just nut up any pay it than stick it on someone else. LoL, it was quite sad to see the situation he put his friends in and how a person would go about ruining their reputation over what they claim to be a small amount of money. I guess it goes to show you beware of who you vouch for, more importantly this guy Tommy Vedes. I know for a fact in the circle where we farm several up and coming pros that are beginning to rise the ranks through hard work, some luck and good connections as far as staking. This guy basically shot himself in the foot as far as his staking goes as more and more find out about his deadbeat antics. When he won in FL the bookies were waiting for him at the rail, not good press. Especially with the way stakers have become more and more consolidated in this day and age. Anyways just my 2 cent, I think ones honor and word is not what is used to be in the poker community almost proving your point many of the pros are broke and on the ropes.

It's sad because he was a stand up guy. Funny and honest at the same time.

Story is way to self indulging after only 1 paragraph I found it to be utter gibirish and stopped reading.

OP, I think a lot of people can relate to your post. They fall into the segment of 2p2 readers who are kind of apathetic to posting, enjoy reading the forums to waste time or enjoy the absurdity of BBV and BBV4lyfe. At least that is how it is for me. We fall into the segment of players who are self-aware they are not world class players, but more importantly do not want to put in the time to become professional. I enjoy going to AC once a month and being a degen for a weekend, but to have it consume my life? For the one cool person I meet at the table, I meet 5 *******s who looks miserable.

I have a high paying job, which allows me to play high stakes, at least AC high stakes. And once in awhile I will come across a TV pro. Most recent example would be Ted Forrest a few months ago. It really was kinda sad to see. But what is the most logical outcome for people who literally gamble all day. Of course they will develop leaks and be unable to weather the inevitable downswing.

I believe they are a few pros who can be successful. Some, like Ivey, are just plain talented. That is a rare gift. I feel like others work hard at the game and seem to have no degenerate leaks (at least not yet) like Galfond. And then there are the DN’s and PH’s, who have a little bit world class talent, but more importantly have serious income from outside jobs and endorsements. It can be relatively easy to play at a higher level than others when you never have to pay the tourney entry fee and can keep rebuying.

I feel like a lot of people on twoplustwo never point out the obvious downside to pursing poker full time. Poker can allow you to travel the world, set your own schedule and allow some people to make more money than they could in the real world. Yes, I agree with that. But only a very few have the intestinal fortitude to do that. Just like they are only a select few who can day trade and a select few who can play in the pros. Just spend a week playing some high stakes games in AC or Vegas and you will see people playing on stakes, ducking backers and playing way above their head.

I am not sure if poker can make you a low moral character person, or the lure of easy money attracts that type of person, but all the countless threads you read on here about scammers is very sobering. As is the daunting prospect of sitting on your ass all day gambling. None of the regulars I encounter seem to be loving playing. It eventually wears anyone down, especially the monotony. I mean I don’t play a lot and know I am a break even player at best. And I have moved to mixed games just because I have gotten so ****ing bored of holdem. If I had to play it day in and day out I would go crazy.

I think another reason so many “pros” are not actually solvent or illiquid is because poker is like marijuana, in that it is a gateway drug. Poker itself in a vaccum can be fine. Yes, if you have no life and focus on poker, you can put in enough volume to where your skill can theoretically overcome the bad beat variance of supposedly weaker players. If you exercise bankroll management and game selection you can sustain a profitable win rate. We have seen the rise of the online pros. It is possible. But poker introduces you to unsavory characters. Poker makes you lose the value of money. Even me, I grind all week at investment banking, and then play at stakes where I can win or lose a half year’s salary in a weekend. It really messes with your perception of money. It also introduces you to pit games, a massive ****ing leak that everyone (yes everyone) plays at some point. So yea poker itself has the potential to be career, but the things and people it forces you to interact with is too powerful for 90% of people.
I think I have gone on a little bit of a tangent, but OP I can understand your point. I think you were trying to point out that what you see on TV is not real. I think for many of us, that Money Maker run on TV made it seem very glamorous. But it has been over ten years now, and anyone who has played in a casino environment knows what you see on TV isn’t real. We all now know about staking, backers, scams, and deadbeats that many of the pros are. Are they bad people? Or are they just always in a bad spot due to the variance of gambling? I don’t know, but I do agree with OP that the majority of poker players struggle. Add to the fact that they are probably un-hirable for a quality job due to their lack of work history, intolerance of a set schedule and addiction to fast money, they are kinda stuck in the vicious cycle.

You did not use solid examples in your post, so when you attack the career choice of many on here you set yourself up for getting vitriol. But if we ignore your kinda ridiculous leaps of faith and assumptions, I think your conclusion is sound. Many people you see on TV are staked or in debt. It is extremely difficult to be able to a successful pro player. The ideal player would be a talented businessman or a sponsored pro who has a steady income. I wish more young kids thinking of making a run at this had the downsides explained more clearly.

I would love if some real live grinders would post about the difficulties of making it, the ****ty behavior they have to encounter by most, or some, of the regs and what percentage of people they think actually make it. Again, I have degen tendencies but have the ivy league education and wealthy family where it doesn't ruin my life. So this is the point of view the post is coming from. I am not a successful pro.

A tough way to make an easy living. Indeed. Anyone who can consistently win live, avoid –EV games and has the mental strength to overcome bad beats is far and few between from what I have experienced during my online and AC degen binges.

So just because you degen in the pits everyone does? that makes zero sense. Also the reason a lot of pros gamble on sports and other things is because they have extra income, not because they are degens.

Bump…..good thread imo. That Polk quote from 2013 confirming this unfortunate reality plus the recent separate Dwan/Hawkins situations….it’s a grim picture overall for most who want to do this full time.

Exactly. People can't see past their own experiences haha. It's like when people make 100k salary and live paycheck to paycheck, which is a surprising amount of people I might add. It's not the job that sucks it's your money management. Get better at life I guess

I like when the OP says everyone is broke except businessman like Barry Greenstein