It was a interesting post, rings true as i know a few online mtts pros and they are very good players, smart guys and also earning around 35-50k PA for good consistent volume of around 450 mtts a week.

I kind of worry about them though, that volume means they have no time for little else. Cant get dates easily because wtf no girls really want to tell their parents they've hooked a "poker pro". Time is slipping by, theyve been at it for 4-6 years and games are getting tougher so prospects arent good really

Yet the thing is they refuse to give up on the dream, and what gets me is to succeed in today's game to have to have a lot going for you, like they do, and they could EASILY make double their income if they applied themselves to something the regular workforce. So yeah while u def can still make a decent life if you are smart and good and all those things Swoop mentioned. .....

Is it really worth it anymore? "Above the average wage" is actually pretty poor money

Of course there will be variance, nobody is making exactly the same amount every year. But a full time player who has some expierence can cope with those swings better than a normal person and adjust to it.
There are different types of players. There are the ones "chasing the dream", ya they are at highest risk in terms of profit/loss.
Then there are the big boys, who mostly are smart/loaded enough in the first place to get so far and even a losing year wouldn't mean much for the most part.
And then there is the everyday grinder who makes consistent profit playing in games he is really comfortable in. He might make less at times, but those numbers for the most part don't disturb everyday life.
The last one is pretty much the true definition of a pro grinder. Playing in stakes where you feel "at home" and showing consistent passive profit.
I mean mostly online cash games, have no idea about live and don't play mtts with a solid volume to speak up. Swoop post was rly good tho.

I know your post makes sense and in the poker world nothing is always 100% certain, but it isn't so depressing as described itt.

I guess my point is that like in life there are different layers of society, same in poker. Pro is not some rare animal who must do way better than others.
There are winners, there are losers, there is the middle etc, just like in life.

I guess they like it then, who are you and me to judge.
I don't go around telling my friends why they work a ****ty job, but it seems like poker needs a special category for some reason.

That's because it's a special type of "****ty job" I suppose

Guess it's all relative.
Don't rly want to continue in this conversation, so don't bother quoting.
Browsing through nvg threads I realise there is no way in hell I would be able to change the opinion of posters like "iPUTnutsONtheTABLE", if their favourite sport is finding negative stuff in every single thread.

So much this.

And yes, like others have mentioned, part of the problem is that everybody is so focused on MTT pros and see every "guy ships 1.5 mil in a tourney, rumored busto two years later" story as proof that poker is unsustainable etc. Meanwhile, countless numbers of guys they've never heard of are quietly crushing cash somewhere and are being smart with their money.

That being said, I do think the current state of the poker economy is more fragile than people think.

It depends on what your other options are. For me, i'd either be working for the Australia Electoral Commission or hosting pub poker most likely, or potentially working in a politician's elecotorate office (the job offers I got straight out of uni + what I have experience in). Those jobs would pay from 40-65k probably, high 5 to maybe low six figs maybe ten years down the track if I ended up running my own franchise in poker, getting into management level at the AEC or or becoming Chief of Staff/etc to a politician or running for office somewhere down the track.

I consider myself somewhere in the middle as far as 'good but not super elite mtt pros' are concerened. In poker i'm up something like 450k gross and 350k net after paying out backers/investors over the past six years with the general trend being each year is slightly better than the last as I improve and build my roll. That works out to just under 60k a year average tax free in Australia (gambling winnings are not recognised as income where I live, this varies depending on which country you live in obviously), which is equal to working a regular job for about 80k a year. I've also had 100k+ equity on the table about 4 times and haven't converted any of them into a six figure score through variance, i'd say in any given year I probably have about a 20-25% chance of hitting a six figure score in a single tournament in addition to the standard yearly profit from normal grinding. Does it make me rich? Absolutely not, but I set my own hours which means I have time for my girlfriend/friends, work from home anywhere I want to live in the world (currently an island on the great barrier reef) and travel internationally a couple of times a year and domestically every couple months at most for combination live series/holiday trips. It's not a Dan Bilzerian lifestyle, but it's certainly an enjoyable lifestyle.

Re: no girls wanting to date a poker pro, that would be true if they are either a) unsuccessful and incapable of making enough money EV-wise to sustain their lifestyle or b) degenerates with a gambling problem who constantly go broke or c) socially awkward which would apply regardless of what said person did for a living

If a woman was incapable of accepting that I do what I want to do for a living I would not want to date her anyway, especially if it was because she lacked the intelligence to understand basic concepts like long term expectation, bankroll management and variance when they were explained in a logical manner. There are plenty of reasons that people are incompatible, lifestyle choices such as playing poker for a living are among those reasons but so are plenty of other things, playing poker for a living has never stopped anyone who is successful in their chosen field from finding a girlfriend. One girl in particular, sure, it could happen and it does, but all eligible, attractive and intelligent women? Absolutely not.

Among my poker circle the vast majority are either married or in long term relationships with attractive, intelligent women. The lifestyle itself (flexibility with hours, travelling) appeals to plenty of women, the lack of a steady paycheck is obviously a minus to security oriented types but it's not that different to being a daytrader, small business owner, salesman or any other line of work where your income has major swings in both directions.

Regarding prospects, if you study to improve and game select it is still possible to progress through the stakes, i've seen plenty of people who work with my coach go from average regs who I could crush to being players much better than me making plenty of money, and I myself would crush the 2011 version of me that was playing poker for a living with reasonable success on Black Friday.

I don't dispute at all that some intelligent guys would make more money doing something else in life, myself probably included, but money isn't everything, it only matters if you don't have enough of it to do all of the things you want to do. For me personally, making 50-100k a year is plenty. If I was making 20k a year then yeah, I would probably go and do something else with my life, but the difference between 100k a year and 200k a year in lifestyle is pretty negligible unless having a big fancy house and flash car is important to your happiness, especially if you would be required to work 50 hours a week in a job you just tolerate instead of actively enjoy in order to achieve that 200k a year (and let's be realistic there are not a lot of traditional jobs working for someone else that pay six figures and are incredibly fulfilling that do not require years of specialised training).

At some stage in the future I might start/invest in a business/buy property/whatever to get a passive income flow, but my ability to do these things is limited only by capital, not by my chosen career path and playing poker for a living you will accumulate capital at the same rate making say 70k a year than you will making 70k a year in a regular job.

On the note of inconsistent income, the variance is only as great as you tolerate for the extra EV that playing higher stakes games bring you. If I wanted to play lower midstakes, there is zero chance that I would ever have a losing year. Zero. I would grind out 25-60k a year risk free, never have a chance at a big score, never having a sub-25k year and live a boring existence grinding out enough money to live a basic life. It's what I did for the first three years or so of my poker career.

I enjoy taking shots at 'the dream' as you call it, but would never actually risk going broke to do so because the shot-taking happens with expendable money. If my bankroll can't handle the swings for a tournament that I want to play, I sell action so that I can afford the swings. All trustworthy and competent pros who network at all are capable of selling any action that they want to sell. Could I go broke? In theory, absolutely. Anybody can, although you minimise the risk to an acceptable level. Do I plan for the future as a competent poker pro? Absolutely. I had my first six figure year last year. Did I go out and buy a sports car? No, the additional winnings were added to my roll and while I went on a couple of holidays and bought some stuff, most of the money was put in the 'lol variance happens better have a proper bankroll' fund. Had a 40k downswing earlier this year. Life goes on, and i'm on course to hit my end of year targets based on the EV I feel that I have in the schedule I play, because I play within my roll to withstand the swings.

For what it's worth, you can 'go broke' in the real world jobs too even if you didn't do anything wrong. Business you work for goes broke, your business plan doesn't work out as a business owner, you get fired for something that wasn't your fault, economic downturn happens with a round of layoffs, the industry you work in becomes obsolete... that's just life... and of course, if you do make mistakes, then you get fired for incompetence, which in a way is what going broke due to bad BRM/life leaks is in poker.

Sure, a traditional job has lower variance in that regard but that's life.

im a certified cash game fish, I lose all the time, but there's a saying, even a blind squir.rel can catch a nut, we get lucky once in a while so yall have to keep that into consideration too, I don't play to win, this is just entertainment to me. But I do agree there's not many of us left, no more money in poker everyone is broke

i cannot help if my everyday normal life seems somewhat cool or out of your league compared to your budget planning/cost cutting grinding daily lifestyle. some of us have the roll and the skills for my type of life, other people do not. each to their own i guess, i wont hold it against you.

Dude, if you had just gotten over yourself/put it back in your pants for a few seconds you would've recognized an awesome chance to reverse-cool-story-bro Swoop's megapost.

lol this

Lost a lot of posting equity in the thread.

This one time I went to post my opinion on the internet, and I expressed my views in a logical manner that went unappreciated by the troglodytes whose opinions I consume in a neverending ouroborous.

I usually don't post, but I had to point out that you got crap for your OP because it is ridiculous.

I mean, you posted this way before BF. There were so many profitable pros because there were so many fish and whales back then. There were also many pros that got their roll busted, not from any leak or bad run, but from getting their accounts frozen. If BF did not occur, I think everyone would still be giving you crap.

You also focus way too much on poker celebrities. The reason most of them are celebrities is because they won 1 or more donkaments. Poker celebrities are, by no way or means, a representation of the real poker pros.

And how the hell would you know if someone was broke by just looking at them "walk in flip-flops". LMAO! How I know a player is broke is when I see them for a month with small stacks and moving down in stakes and asking me for money. Even then, I'm not 100% sure.

Yes, playing poker for a living is extremely difficult nowadays after BF, and not many players are able to do it. But, there are still many pros that grind the tables for a living. They're just not on TV. You seem fixated on these "TV celebrities" being broke. Most of the pros I know could give two craps about any celebrity pros and they spend their time improving their own game and making money.

lol not sure if trolling or just douchebag

Probably both

LOL... yea sure they do. And if they do they didn't get it from playing poker

They cant dare to make their money playing poker

To the OP:
What is the primary point of the post? If we assume that, yes, you are correct that "almost all" players "go broke," what exactly is the point that you are trying to make? That is, what is the conclusion you are leading to? Should people not play poker? It seems weird that you would draw that conclusion on a poker forum (no less) that is filled with poker players.

Also, there are so many generalizations in your OP that it is hard to respond or react in a meaningful or constructive manner. For example, you make statements such as "You shouldn't feel ashamed to lose money playing poker." This is patently absurd. Think of the opposite statement. So, is the point you are making that "(you) should feel proud of losing money playing poker?"

You also state that you admire players who openly admit or even glorify the fact that they are broke. This, too, is absurd. Again, logically speaking, broke poker players need to get money to win money. Thus, they need to attract money (backers, investors, loaners, etc). No one in their right mind would give money to a loser. Fair or not, one measure of winner vs. loser is ... results. Broke people have bad results. That's how they became broke. So, why would any player go around publicizing the fact that they are broke? Which brings us back to your OP. By stating that certain players are broke (whether in fact or by rumor), is your goal to try to make it difficult for them to borrow money or backing? I suppose this could be your motive as it relates to my initial question above with regard to "what is your goal" of the post? However, if this is your goal, I'd think that most forum readers would wonder why you would invest a lot of time to do just that through a Tolstoy-like essay on 2+2.

I could go on but it would lead to a Tolstoy-like response so will let it rest here ...

I figured I'd just chime in to mention for potential lurkers or people without too much experience playing poker for a living that while swoop's post seems to make sense on it's face, it's missing some very important factors that play a major role in the decision. I don't have the time to break it down with a paragraph by paragraph tl;dr response but the major problems with the perspective imo is that if you're only making $50k a year playing poker then you're putting yourself and your life in a very vulnerable/limited situation as far as your options go and that's the last place you want to be when playing poker for a living. Just making ends meet is a risky proposition when playing poker for a living since burnout, losing an edge, legislation (this one's already happened), lifestyle changes, etc, are all too high risk and without having a large bankroll stocked away you're more or less backed into a corner. Post I made on this subject in another thread long time ago before black friday:

Actually a very solid post (#618). I appreciate your knowledge and candour amongst the junk in this thread.

If you think they have made/saved 100 mill or playing poker then you're delusional

i once played with men the master…he drank wine the whole time and kept talking to some guy who was probably writing down all of mens's horses chip stacks throughout the tourney room and reporting back every 5 minutes!!!!! he lucksacked…cracked KK with AK…he also flopped quads on me and we check all the way down and of course i river a boat and he value bets the river and i have to call

i feel like men is alright….also known as not broke

Boil native oilive-oil and garlic on low temparature, then step the heat up one click on the ...platform... and add 4 eggs and a sliced onion about 1 minute later. Mix it up, and add a pound of bacon, a bit of Parmesan (Gran Pardano, you losers) and some kraut or weed about a minute later, then drink a glass of milk before you put the flash out of the pan and eat it.
If you hate what you just did there, add ketchup and maybe even a tomato, but eat it all, When you've done that. you are finally an adult single male.

Opportunity cost of failure in poker increases every year in terms of transitioning to another job. Easier to fail and adjust at 29 vs. 39. See PSUMike thread.

Re: No, hell i just became rich